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Author Topic:   The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5051 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 46 of 334 (70075)
11-30-2003 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
11-22-2003 9:15 PM


I'll bite...

What we know for sure:
1) There is an elderly man who was able to go without food and water for 10 days
2) he claims this ability was granted by a goddess, and
3) he claims he has not eaten in 40 years.

This is amazing in and of itself. I think it's important to investigate this further from a purely mechanical/physical perspective, but one can surely not discount out of hand "supernatural" elements... one can doubt with good reason, but it will not be known until further investigation is made.

Until the situation is understood, we can still address Buz's points by granting the supernatural as an explanation, for the sake of argument.

All he was asking is (if the supernatural is involved) is this guy being possessed by a demon to enjoy the extraordinary powers he obviously has (even if it really wasn't for 40 years)?

Unfortunately I feel the form of the question creates a bit of a stock dilemma. Here are some alternative supernatural theories:

1) He really was blessed by a goddess
2) He was blessed by God and mistook it for a goddess (of a religion he understood)
3) He has achieved a higher spiritual reality all on his own and mistakenly attributes it to the blessing of a supernatural being.

My first question to buz is how would we determine which theory is correct?

The man appears to be ruling over no one and wholly separate from cannibalism so I am uncertain why the other example (whose veracity is much more dubious) holds sway here.

Perhaps we should have a priest come in and try to exorcise the man under strict scientific observation. If the priest failed, what would this indicate to you (ie would it act as proof of anything)?

As a nonXian I must also wonder why I am not believe this poor pagan's story, and view Xians as servants of demonic (evil) forces. After all good and evil is simply tomayto tomahto from the viewpoint of those within religion.

This man is peace loving, yet your immediate characterization (from a Xian perspective) is of evil. Your analogous story is a disturbing tale of a missionary that when confronted by an extraordinary woman of old age and respect within her community, kills her in order to spread his faith (freeing them of their own, which is as you yourself state was not a cannibal tribe).

When longlife and general happiness is what these pagans appear to be experiencing, and death and intolerance is what Xianity brings to the picture, why should I not suspect if the supernatural is real Xians are following an evil death cult?

This is not meant as sarcasm, but real questions which arise once the supernatural enters the picture.

------------------
holmes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 11-22-2003 9:15 PM Buzsaw has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by sidelined, posted 11-30-2003 3:28 PM Silent H has replied
 Message 56 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-01-2003 6:09 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 63 by Dart3055, posted 12-21-2003 2:37 AM Silent H has taken no action

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5140 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 47 of 334 (70084)
11-30-2003 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Silent H
11-30-2003 2:36 PM


Holmes
What we know for sure:
1) There is an elderly man who was able to go without food and water for 10 days
2) he claims this ability was granted by a goddess, and
3) he claims he has not eaten in 40 years.

Notice the operative word claim. This is in contradiction to your phrase "Here is what we know for sure." As the saying goes "what they do not appreciate is not if it is possible or not but whether it is going on or not."

The same goes for demon possesion. We have a claim made and when the claims have been properly investigated they have fallen apart in the presentation of evidence.Why is it that you always lean toward a supernatural explanation to the extent of not even considering the natural explanation? He might just have been lying. Would you have me believe that this is not a possiblility?

Perhaps we should have a priest come in and try to exorcise the man under strict scientific observation. If the priest failed, what would this indicate to you (ie would it act as proof of anything)?

Good idea.You find the example and I will get in contact with CNN and CSICOP and have a real examination by competent doctors and skeptics to ascertain the veracity of the claim under conditions to eliminate deception and self-deceit.Then we could also get the information on how an exorcism is properly done and how the people performing it are confident to demonstrate that it is actual and not itself a lie or self-deceit.

Would you consider this a fair and even way to go about establishing the truth of the matter? Under scrutiny of the camera and a security force we could determine if indeed the man goes without food as he says. If he is indeed lying then it would not take much to determine that he is doing this,most especially if he appears to be well fed.

As to the question of demon possesion being true or not,again it is something that should be aired on nation wide TV over a number of cases,previously agreed to in writing by both sides,that would establish beyond a reasonable doubt[Although that will not halt unreasonable people from continuing to believe despite evidence]whether it is an actual phenomena or a bullshit run by people who are easily fooled.

Let me know what you think.

[This message has been edited by sidelined, 11-30-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Silent H, posted 11-30-2003 2:36 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Amlodhi, posted 11-30-2003 6:11 PM sidelined has taken no action
 Message 49 by Silent H, posted 11-30-2003 6:28 PM sidelined has replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 334 (70114)
11-30-2003 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by sidelined
11-30-2003 3:28 PM


No contradiction
Hi sidelined,

quote:
Originally posted by sidelined

Notice the operative word claim. This is in contradiction to your phrase "Here is what we know for sure."


Actually, Mr. Holmes is stating that we know for sure that this person is making this claim. This is not an internal contradiction.

As to further testing involving this individual, according to a BBC news article I have read, he has only allowed himself to undergo this type of scrutiny on this one occasion and that, as mentioned, only for a 10 day period. I would have been much more impressed if he had allowed himself to be observed for a couple of months or so. Afterall, what's a couple of months out of 66 years?

Namaste'

Amlodhi

[This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 11-30-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by sidelined, posted 11-30-2003 3:28 PM sidelined has taken no action

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5051 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 49 of 334 (70117)
11-30-2003 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by sidelined
11-30-2003 3:28 PM


quote:
Notice the operative word claim. This is in contradiction to your phrase "Here is what we know for sure."

Actually there is no contradiction at all. What we know for sure is he CLAIMS etc etc. That is why the last two points are separate from the first. We know he went for ten days without food and water, the rest are merely claims and require much more investigation.

quote:
Why is it that you always lean toward a supernatural explanation to the extent of not even considering the natural explanation? ... Would you have me believe that this is not a possiblility?

I am unsure what you are talking about. Is this addressed to me or to buz? I think there should be a natural investigation and my post said that (ie the reference to physical/mechanical perspective). In fact I am confident that is exactly where answers will be found.

This fakir could very well be a liar, but one thing is for certain and that is he didn't fake not eating and drinking for ten whole days (neither did he piss or sh**). That is pretty damn impressive and worth investigating.

That whole 160 year old lady exorcised by a priest totally sounds like a ripping yarn (ie a fake) and so I didn't really deal with it at all, except after granting it's veracity FOR SAKE OF ARGUMENT. I don't have to believe it at all, in order to address the problems it raises if it is true.

quote:
Let me know what you think.

I am totally on board that if an exorcism were to be conducted... to prove the fakir is actually demon possessed... that it ought to be monitored by as many scientists with as many possible detection devices possible.

I'm unsure why a security force is needed (the guy looks like a toothpick).

You seem to be skeptical about whether the fakir actually went 10 days without food and water. Did you read Primordial Egg's post? It contained two different sources on the story. I suppose they could be fake, or something that will turn out later to be a hoax perpetrated on honest journalists. But I can't go around assuming that each story is a hoax because it seems extraordinary. It just needs to be checked up on.

Frankly I wish those scientists had extended the experiment to 60 days. If there were no signs of peril at 10, it seems to me that more data (and a much more incredible exhibition of human endurance) would have been worthwhile.

You understood most of my post was with an assumption that he was right, simply to address the next logical problems he would face?

------------------
holmes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by sidelined, posted 11-30-2003 3:28 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 11-30-2003 11:27 PM Silent H has replied

  
Len Lisenbee
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 334 (70169)
11-30-2003 10:33 PM


Buzzsay, I believe you could be right on the mark with your assessment that the hindu is possessed with a demon. After all, there are many tens of thousands of fallen angels, aka "demons" trapped here on earth. Where are they? They are up to all sorts of mischief as they serve Satan. So, keep up your good work, and keep your (our) faith in Christ. Do not let their godless mocking ever get to you.

Len Lisenbee


Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Zhimbo, posted 11-30-2003 11:15 PM Len Lisenbee has taken no action
 Message 54 by Buzsaw, posted 12-01-2003 12:08 AM Len Lisenbee has taken no action
 Message 55 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 12-01-2003 4:25 AM Len Lisenbee has taken no action
 Message 57 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-01-2003 7:34 AM Len Lisenbee has taken no action

  
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 5243 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 51 of 334 (70175)
11-30-2003 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Len Lisenbee
11-30-2003 10:33 PM


Why is Buz finding an open auto shop proof of the validity of his religion, but a Hindi who supposedly can live without food is proof of (Judeo-Christian) demons?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Len Lisenbee, posted 11-30-2003 10:33 PM Len Lisenbee has taken no action

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5140 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 52 of 334 (70177)
11-30-2003 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Silent H
11-30-2003 6:28 PM


Holmes
Sorry if I misread your post as I did miss the change in time from 66 years without food in buz's first post to your post of ten days.

I also misinterpreted this part.

"When longlife and general happiness is what these pagans appear to be experiencing, and death and intolerance is what Xianity brings to the picture, why should I not suspect if the supernatural is real Xians are following an evil death cult?"

On first read I thought you were supporting the supernatural point of view.I apologize profusely and shall sacrifice my first born in atonement.

Thanks for setting me straight.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Silent H, posted 11-30-2003 6:28 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Silent H, posted 11-30-2003 11:54 PM sidelined has taken no action

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5051 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 53 of 334 (70186)
11-30-2003 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by sidelined
11-30-2003 11:27 PM


quote:
I apologize profusely and shall sacrifice my first born in atonement.

No no no, if you want to atone to my gods only an orgy will do. My gods are the ones of celebratory life affirming sex, not sacrifice and death.

Enjoy!

------------------
holmes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 11-30-2003 11:27 PM sidelined has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Peter, posted 12-16-2003 8:34 AM Silent H has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 334 (70191)
12-01-2003 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Len Lisenbee
11-30-2003 10:33 PM


Ok Len. Will do. Thanks and God bless!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Len Lisenbee, posted 11-30-2003 10:33 PM Len Lisenbee has taken no action

  
Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 334 (70213)
12-01-2003 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Len Lisenbee
11-30-2003 10:33 PM


Demons were made up by people to answer the questions raised by some weird occurrence. Instead of looking at evidence and at the observations and coming to a logical conclusion, you can just say a demon did it. It is a bit like seeing a shooting star and claiming that it was superman.

As for the guy supposedly living for that long without food or water, unless he found a way to convert his urine into useable nurturance it is medically impossible. He would be as dry as a bone after a few weeks. Your cells need water and food to survive or they die.

I think a more reasonable conclusion is that he has been sneaking in food or someone has been giving him food. Also why would a “demon" posses an old man and just sit around and not eat? Not very interesting life if you ask me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Len Lisenbee, posted 11-30-2003 10:33 PM Len Lisenbee has taken no action

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 334 (70225)
12-01-2003 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Silent H
11-30-2003 2:36 PM


Holmes,

Looking at your "what we know for sure" list:

1) There is an elderly man who was able to go without food and water for 10 days
2) he claims this ability was granted by a goddess, and
3) he claims he has not eaten in 40 years.

I'd change number 1 to:

1. According to the doctors in the hospital, there is an elderly man who was able to go without food and water for 10 days.

Often scientists are the worst people in the world to detect fraudulent claims of the supernatural as they tend to be too trusting. It sometimes takes a professional conman to detect where any chicanery is taking place (e.g was he allowed visitors during the period? Could they have slipped him something?). I'd like to have seen James Randi there to cast his eye over the conditions of the experiment.

The most we can say is that the doctor's are baffled.

Its also pretty weird that the guy lost some weight over the ten days - that just doesn't add up to me. As you say, what difference does a week of not consuming make over an entire lifetime of not consuming?

As for demon possession, I once heard this story about a guy some time ago who was crucified, pronounced dead and came to life three days later. He also claimed to hear voices from God. Seems like a surefire case of demonic possession to me.

PE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Silent H, posted 11-30-2003 2:36 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Silent H, posted 12-01-2003 12:29 PM Primordial Egg has taken no action

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 334 (70229)
12-01-2003 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Len Lisenbee
11-30-2003 10:33 PM


Buzzsay, I believe you could be right on the mark with your assessment that the hindu is possessed with a demon. After all, there are many tens of thousands of fallen angels, aka "demons" trapped here on earth. Where are they? They are up to all sorts of mischief as they serve Satan. So, keep up your good work, and keep your (our) faith in Christ. Do not let their godless mocking ever get to you.

Wait a minute...that sounds like demon-talk to me. How do I know that you're not possessed by a demon?

PE


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Len Lisenbee, posted 11-30-2003 10:33 PM Len Lisenbee has taken no action

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5051 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 58 of 334 (70276)
12-01-2003 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Primordial Egg
12-01-2003 6:09 AM


quote:
1. According to the doctors in the hospital, there is an elderly man who was able to go without food and water for 10 days.

You are absolutely right, and the change will make the statement more accurate.

I looked at the articles to see where I could find possible methods of the fakir being a faker. The fact that he had a sealed toilet was a pretty shrewd move on the doctors' part. That means it was pretty unlikely he was pissing or defecating during that time, whether or not he managed to sneak in food or water, unless of course he could somehow avoid detection during those activities and sneak those things out.

I did note that one of the pictures showed a devotee being allowed to come in and visit the guy. That surely sent up signals of possible fraud. I think what would be more helpful in this analysis is knowing how he was monitored, how visits to him were regulated, and if all visitors were checked for anything that could carry in/out material.

I was also affected by his loss of ten pounds. It seemed the doctors should have wondered about this loss. If his body was self-sustaining and had been so for 40+ years, why would he suddenly lose ten pounds. In fact 10 pounds over 10 days is a pretty big drop (especially for such a thin, elderly man).

This is why I am less likely to believe his body is self-sustaining, and more than likely (if the hospital report is true) this guy just has much greater level of endurance (perhaps slowing down metabolic activity, including needs).

Hey, what about talking burning bushes, and some entity telling Moses to go kill all men women and children that don't believe as he does. Today we'd call a man that did so, because a voice told him to do so, insane. If he wasn't crazy, why is that god constantly killing people, or having people kill other people, rather than promoting peace and love and fertility?

He also seems to hate knowledge of anything except for what he says.

If any other "cult" said that, wouldn't they be considered demonic?

------------------
holmes

[This message has been edited by holmes, 12-01-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-01-2003 6:09 AM Primordial Egg has taken no action

  
nator
Member (Idle past 1402 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 59 of 334 (72847)
12-14-2003 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by nator
11-30-2003 9:36 AM


Buz, replies to 44 and 45 in this thread, please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by nator, posted 11-30-2003 9:36 AM nator has taken no action

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 711 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 60 of 334 (73295)
12-16-2003 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Silent H
11-30-2003 11:54 PM


Where do I join your church ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Silent H, posted 11-30-2003 11:54 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Silent H, posted 12-16-2003 6:44 PM Peter has replied

  
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