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Author Topic:   Hollow Earth Expedition?
yenmor
Member (Idle past 1995 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 46 of 177 (702413)
07-05-2013 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by dwise1
07-05-2013 4:48 PM


Re: Hollow Man
Any idea, fiction or not, of how the material inside the earth is deposited onto the surface to expand the crust? Haven't been able to map out that bit yet.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 5587
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 47 of 177 (702414)
07-05-2013 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by yenmor
07-05-2013 4:20 PM


Re: Hollow Man
But opinion on how I can make a scifi novel on the topic sound less like it was written by a crank (me).

What you would mostly need, is a good plot. People will happily suspend their disbelief for a story that is otherwise worth reading.

As to how to come up with a good plot -- sorry, that's not anything that I am good at.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 48 of 177 (702415)
07-05-2013 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by yenmor
07-05-2013 4:56 PM


Re: Hollow Man
Well all the expanding-earthers I've seen admit sea-floor spreading. So, like that. Of course, you might ask why the magma is forced up to the surface instead of floating around inside the gravity-free hollow Earth ... you'd really have to ask them that.

The best thing I can thing of is that the Earth is an artificial structure a la Ringworld. Why? Well, here's an idea. Let us suppose the existence an alien race of cosmic pariahs, who for some reason (fill in your own) have powerful enemies bent on their destruction. They construct a hollow Earth as camouflage, and live on the inside. Anyone looking at it, superficially at least, would see an ordinary planet with a bunch of harmless bipedal monkeys scurrying about on the surface. Beneath it, the race of refugees hides ... the impression that S and P waves pass through the Earth is produced by their Advanced Alien Technology, which also forces magma through the mid-ocean rifts.

Of course, this doesn't explain why they'd want the planet to expand, or why they'd leave holes at the poles, but maybe you can think of something.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4785
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 49 of 177 (702416)
07-05-2013 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by yenmor
07-05-2013 4:56 PM


Re: Hollow Man
... how the material inside the earth is deposited onto the surface ...

That is what volcanoes do. Also, look up mid-ocean ridge. That’s a slow upwelling of magma along a ridge between tectonic plates spreading the plates apart. If you're looking for a whole lot of inside coming outside look up the Deccan Traps. Also, a super caldera like Yellowstone Park.

In fiction, drill a bore hole into the magma which erupts violently splitting open the plate for miles and miles gushing magma everywhere. Or have a somewhat smallish asteroid hit somewhere and just punches through the crust. Of course such a collision would be an extinction level event so you might only use that at the end to kill everyone.

There are others, of course. Be creative.

Edit.

After seeing the other replies I guess I had the wrong idea here. You're trying to get stuff to the surface from inside a hollow thing where nothing is there to come out? How bout some fancy majik machines that make the magma from captured passing asteroids then squirt the stuff onto the surface thought the methods mentioned above? Or maybe a wormhole inside the planet is slowly sucking stuff from a parallel universe and forcing it through the crust?

Cool.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : I kant seam to spel right no more. My fingres r knot connekting to my brane rite or something.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 50 of 177 (702418)
07-05-2013 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by AZPaul3
07-05-2013 5:39 PM


Re: Hollow Man
After seeing the other replys I guess I had the wrong idea here. You're trying to get stuff to the surface from inside a hollow thing where nothing is there to come out?

I don't see why --- one could stretch the Earth's crust by thinning it --- material from the inside is converted into magma and pumped out at the mid-ocean ridges.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4785
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 51 of 177 (702419)
07-05-2013 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Dr Adequate
07-05-2013 5:52 PM


Re: Hollow Man
stretch the Earth's crust by thinning it

That's a good one. Of course the thinner the crust became the more fragile. Which could be used to create side issues to the general plot.


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yenmor
Member (Idle past 1995 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 52 of 177 (702422)
07-05-2013 6:28 PM


Ok, let me give you an idea of what I have so far.

All planets start out as solid. But through some natural process (I'll figure this bit out later), stuff began to slowly move to the surface and cause the expansion, causing a void in the center of the Earth that grew over time.

My plot would start out some time in the future when mankind has begun colonizing the solar system. Then mainstream science is stunt to find that inside all planetary bodies (not just the Earth) are hollow spaces. At first, most scientists would deny, but eventually enough evidence are presented to sway mainstream scientific community.

I know, that sounds boring, but I assure you, that's not the main plot. The main plot will surprise everyone. Me telling you guys what I have in mind would negate the novel, so no telling here.

What I'm trying to do right now is trying to come up with a plausible explanation for the expansion and hollowing of planetary bodies. Science fiction novels are only as good as the explanations behind their "science". That's why the most successful scifi novelists are also scientists.

By the way, thank you Dr. A for the alien idea. But my plot needs a "natural" process that affects all planetary bodies in the universe, not just the Earth. Otherwise, the climax that I've already mapped out wouldn't work at all.

Regarding the holes in the poles or this lost tribe of Israel living down there, I'm inclined to ignore them. May be I'll reference them in the story, but my imagination has limits!

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


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dwise1
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Posts: 3867
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 53 of 177 (702423)
07-05-2013 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by yenmor
07-05-2013 4:56 PM


Re: Hollow Man
Yet another YEC PRATT ("points refuted a thousand times").

Please read the page I posted about my own research into the YEC claim about "moon dust", which depends on a false claim about the rate of influx of meteoric matter: http://cre-ev.dwise1.net/moondust.html

It turns out that if the moon is really 5 billion years old, it should have accrued a layer of meteoric dust that's a whopping ... 1/3 inch think!

The rate for the earth was either 10 or 100 times greater, but still hardly enough for your purposes.

But if your goal is to write a sci-fi novel, then you do indeed need to work out all the real science.

I just loved Issac Asimov's biographical notes! First, he notes his having been born in Russia, but then realizing his mistake, his family emigrated to the USA. As he was growing up, his father, quite naturally (I am, after all, myself a father), wanted the best future for his son. Knowing that science was important albeit being totally ignorant of science himself, he gave his young son a science fiction publication. The rest is glorious history.


This message is a reply to:
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yenmor
Member (Idle past 1995 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 54 of 177 (702426)
07-05-2013 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by dwise1
07-05-2013 6:31 PM


Re: Hollow Man
quote:
Yet another YEC PRATT ("points refuted a thousand times").
Please read the page I posted about my own research into the YEC claim about "moon dust", which depends on a false claim about the rate of influx of meteoric matter: http://cre-ev.dwise1.net/moondust.html

It turns out that if the moon is really 5 billion years old, it should have accrued a layer of meteoric dust that's a whopping ... 1/3 inch think!

The rate for the earth was either 10 or 100 times greater, but still hardly enough for your purposes.



Not what I'm after at all.

(1) All planetary bodies formed as solid bodies.

(2) Some kind of natural process not yet known to science causes the planetary bodies to grow and hollow out. I'm not talking about something with a really thin crust like a dyson's sphere.

Anyone remember the movie the core from the 90s? Remember that big-ass cavern they ran into in the mantle? That's the kind of spaces I'm thinking of due to planetary expansion.


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3867
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 55 of 177 (702427)
07-05-2013 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by yenmor
07-05-2013 6:28 PM


All planets start out as solid. But through some natural process (I'll figure this bit out later), stuff began to slowly move to the surface and cause the expansion, causing a void in the center of the Earth that grew over time.

My last physics class was back circa 1980, but I'm good at retaining concepts. Gravitation depends on mass and upon the distribution of mass -- the distribution of mass becomes far more important in problems concerning the conservation of angular momentum which has very practical applications in satellite despinning and in turns performed by dancers and ice skaters (my own interest in the matter is in dancing ... so many times I want to explain what the teacher is trying to express in terms of actual physics).

One problem in our physics textbook (Fundamentals of Physics 2nd ed, Halliday and Resnick, John Wiley and Sons, 1974) involved the gravitational field of a hollow sphere. You might want to look into that problem.


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yenmor
Member (Idle past 1995 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 56 of 177 (702429)
07-05-2013 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by dwise1
07-05-2013 6:41 PM


I know what you're talking about. I've worked out that problem regarding the grav field of a hollow sphere many times.

That's not exactly what I'm after, though. I'm not looking for known scientific principles. Just use your imagination and make it sound plausible. If the earth started out as solid, then over time expanded because of spreading of ocean floors and hollowing out the inner parts, what would cause such a behavior?

And damn you're old. I wasn't even born back in 1980.

Edited by yenmor, : No reason given.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 57 of 177 (702430)
07-05-2013 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by yenmor
07-05-2013 6:28 PM


By the way, thank you Dr. A for the alien idea. But my plot needs a "natural" process that affects all planetary bodies in the universe, not just the Earth.

Yes, but there isn't one, that's why they don't actually expand.

In sci-fi, if you want to go beyond the limits of known scientific laws, you have to add something ad hoc. The hero can travel faster than light because he has a faster-than-light drive, and can transmute matter with his matter transmuter. And if you want planets to expand, then they do so because of the force that causes planetary expansion. You can maybe think of a snappier name for this force, but you will just have to invent it, what with it not existing.

Personally, the conjuring-up of such a force would irritate me as a reader in a way that FTL drives and matter transmuters don't. Is it actually necessary for your plot that scientists should find out why planets expand? Is not not sufficient for them to find out that they do? If handled right, this would be less irritating to the reader.

What I mean by "handled right" is that the reader should be given absolutely no hope that the phenomenon will be explained by the end of the book, otherwise it would be even more irritating when it wasn't. But the thing is that it would also be incredibly irritating if at the end of the book there is an "explanation" and it's along the lines of "the expansion of planets is caused by a reversal in the polarity of the neutron flow". That's worse, because the readers still aren't being provided with an explanation, but you're pretending that they have been --- a pretense which they will (a) see through and (b) be insulted by.


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Replies to this message:
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yenmor
Member (Idle past 1995 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 58 of 177 (702434)
07-05-2013 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dr Adequate
07-05-2013 7:33 PM


quote:
Yes, but there isn't one, that's why they don't actually expand.

You guys have spent years dealing with pseudoscience, and now you're telling me you can't think of a single pseudoscientific principal to help me out?

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 445 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 59 of 177 (702435)
07-05-2013 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by yenmor
07-05-2013 9:15 PM


Science fiction...
Science fiction is traditionally based on sound science.

Many such works, however, extrapolate into the future. An example would be the so-called "double-talk" drive that permits faster than light travel--interstellar travel just doesn't work without this extrapolation. Readers will forgive these extrapolations if the other science is sound and it is introduced in a plausible manner.

But too much of that and you end up writing fantasy whether you meant to or not.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6879
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 60 of 177 (702438)
07-05-2013 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by yenmor
07-05-2013 4:20 PM


Re: Hollow Man
I'm an atheist. I'm neither an evolutionist nor a creationist.

You have an agenda. It certainly isn't a skeptical one so I am not real open minded about you. As for being an atheist I have no clue but gut feeling is you are a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Anyway, since this topic isn't really drawing anything but snark comments and displays of YEC qualities, I'm not really interested in it anymore.

Run away little boy, run away.

I have some friends from college that have become college professors.

I know a few college professors(in science fields no less) they think the whole premise of this OP is laughable. But then again we are from the Midwest so what do we know.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


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