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Author Topic:   Ruling out an expanding universe with conventional proofs
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 121 of 223 (702556)
07-09-2013 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Bolder-dash
07-09-2013 12:23 AM


Re: Percy the CrankHead.
Where you see the little astericks on my post, that is where Percy's software edits the word m o r o n
But not the word blowjobs! Which makes Percy alright by me.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-09-2013 12:23 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 122 of 223 (702560)
07-09-2013 10:36 AM


Stephen C. Meyer:
Bachelors degree in Earth Science and Physics-Whitworth College
Ph.D. History & Philosophy of Science, Cambridge University
Professor of Philosophy- Whitworth College
Founder of the Discovery Institute
Percy the CrankHead:
Website has blue colors.
Owns a big rubber horn.
Doesn't have time to learn cosmology, but knows a crank when he sees one.
Edited by Bolder-dash, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by NoNukes, posted 07-09-2013 8:14 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Alphabob
Member (Idle past 1104 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 06-28-2013


Message 123 of 223 (702565)
07-09-2013 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Dr Adequate
07-09-2013 12:58 AM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
Redshift becomes less directionally dependent as distance increases. Locally we should see galaxies and clusters along the shortest directions to the central core accelerating away. In the opposite direction, we are accelerating away from galaxies and clusters with higher gravitational potential. So the majority of objects will appear to be receding. Current surveys only cover small portions of the sky, so there is a large gap in data with respect to the directional dependence of galaxies and clusters.
There will however be objects with blueshift locally and in specific directions. So far there are 7000+ galaxies with blueshift and they are uniquely distributed. Although only a blog, the author plotted most of these and provides a link to the NED database. (Distribution of Blue Shifted Galaxies).
More distant objects will all have redshift, where current SNIa data does not fit isotropic expansion from 0.1z to 0.5z. I plotted these in figure 3.21, where uncertainty is too small to be fit by lambda-CDM predictions (black lines). Beyond 0.5z the uncertainty becomes too large to make any sort of conclusion.
http://thecontinuousuniverse.com/images/Figure%204.12.JPG
Edited by Alphabob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2013 12:58 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2013 9:39 PM Alphabob has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 124 of 223 (702580)
07-09-2013 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Bolder-dash
07-09-2013 10:36 AM


Dash writes:
Percy the CrankHead:
When you are suspended again for the 145th time, the reason for the action will of course be a complete mystery to you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Bolder-dash, posted 07-09-2013 10:36 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 125 of 223 (702582)
07-09-2013 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Alphabob
07-09-2013 12:33 PM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
Redshift becomes less directionally dependent as distance increases. Locally we should see galaxies and clusters along the shortest directions to the central core accelerating away. In the opposite direction, we are accelerating away from galaxies and clusters with higher gravitational potential.
And so if we look along a line perpendicular to a line drawn between us and the center we see ... what?
What you need to explain is this. Our experience of red shift is symmetrical. Yet you explain it in terms of a thing (the center) which is obviously not distributed symmetrically around us, but is in one particular direction from our position. Now, how does a completely asymmetric cause have a completely symmetric effect?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Alphabob, posted 07-09-2013 12:33 PM Alphabob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Alphabob, posted 07-10-2013 12:36 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 126 of 223 (702611)
07-10-2013 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by onifre
07-09-2013 9:30 AM


Re: Percy the CrankHead.
The wonderfully twisted mind of a comedian.
Gotta love it!
Thanks, Onifre.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by onifre, posted 07-09-2013 9:30 AM onifre has seen this message but not replied

  
Alphabob
Member (Idle past 1104 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 06-28-2013


Message 127 of 223 (702642)
07-10-2013 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Dr Adequate
07-09-2013 9:39 PM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
If you were to look in a direction perpendicular to the core's direction from Earth, there would be a mixture of redshift and blueshift locally. It's basically a large bulk flow accelerating into a gravitational potential, so there will be variations in density and relative velocity. Due to the deflection of light over large distances, these directions begin to point towards the central region. This is what the dispersion in figure 3.21 is from, i.e. observations do not fit isotropic expansion.
Edited by Alphabob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2013 9:39 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by NoNukes, posted 07-10-2013 2:04 PM Alphabob has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 223 (702658)
07-10-2013 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Alphabob
07-10-2013 12:36 PM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
If you were to look in a direction perpendicular to the core's direction from Earth, there would be a mixture of redshift and blueshift locally.
And of course we see blue and red shifted galaxies in any direction we look. This answer is useless.
What is being asked here is to distinguish between what we ought to see in directions along and perpendicular to the direction to the galactic core according to your hypothesis about the universe. Can you make a specific prediction that we can compare with reality.
Due to the deflection of light over large distances, these directions begin to point towards the central region.
How does this 'light deflection" create a CMBR that appears to be highly isotropic based on the view from our solar system? The CMBR seems to come from all directions and not from any central location.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Alphabob, posted 07-10-2013 12:36 PM Alphabob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Alphabob, posted 07-11-2013 12:55 PM NoNukes has replied

  
jasonlang
Member (Idle past 3403 days)
Posts: 51
From: Australia
Joined: 07-14-2005


Message 129 of 223 (702737)
07-11-2013 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Percy
07-06-2013 7:04 AM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
(EDIT: A response to post #96 not #95, I don't post here often and assumed the reply link was at the top of each post, not the bottom)
Quote from AlphaBob:
quote:
I would say that someone has a typo in their article .
There's nothing wrong with the pre-1992 articles; for example, some contain irrefutable observations such as spectroscopic redshift of the FBGs and their characteristics. The problem is that many have purposed theoretical solutions that can be ruled out from later observations.
Mergers between galaxies for example were not fully constrained until just recently (2011+), which is an important aspect in the FBG problem. Some suggested that drastic mergers took place around 0.3z - 1.0z, but new results demonstrate the amount of mergers is insignificant. Others purposed that the FBGs were blue dwarfs or dE, but 300% brighter than the local populations. Observations have shown that they perfectly match the characteristics of common irregulars and disk, i.e. they are fully consistent with no evolution in terms of color and redshift distribution.
  —alphaBob
"purposed"? Surely you mean "proposed"? Does your voice activation thing misunderstand you? I would have thought those two words were pronounced rather differently.
Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.
Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.
Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Percy, posted 07-06-2013 7:04 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

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jasonlang
Member (Idle past 3403 days)
Posts: 51
From: Australia
Joined: 07-14-2005


(1)
Message 130 of 223 (702738)
07-11-2013 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Alphabob
07-07-2013 1:10 AM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
quote:
I suppose that demonstrates the current state of science when a noble laureate is considered a crank. Arxiv has admitted censorship by itself "'to accommodate the interests of people within the research community' and not 'outsiders'"; keyword interest.
"He is now a crank like you"
Once again a baseless accusation. You argue in circles and ignore basic proofs and logic. The proofs are simple, the discussion already exists from conventional literature and all you can do is repeat the same crank line over and over again. Please contribute something productive or nothing at all...
Dude, that Nobel Laureate now specializes in telepathy studies. Regardless of what he may have done before, his current work is pure crank. That's logic. A Nobel prize isn't a blank cheque for everything you do after that to be considered utterly brilliant by some sort of fiat.
Edited by jasonlang, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Alphabob, posted 07-07-2013 1:10 AM Alphabob has not replied

  
Alphabob
Member (Idle past 1104 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 06-28-2013


Message 131 of 223 (702812)
07-11-2013 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by NoNukes
07-10-2013 2:04 PM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
There are various factors involved in the local redshift including bulk flows. My paper only focuses on redshift beyond 0.1z, which is relatively close. What should be seen according to my theory is a directional dependence of distance versus redshift for SNIa. Unlike galaxy surveys, SNIa act as standard candles and are nearly equally distributed in all directions. So the plot of SNIa provides exactly what is predicted by my model. The average error below 0.5z in figure 3.21 is less than 0.21u, where the black lines are predictions from the big bang theory and red lines are from mine.
http://thecontinuousuniverse.com/images/Figure%204.12.JPG
As for the CMBR, the temperature appears isotropic because only gravitational redshift and relative motion will vary it. With the surface of the central core having constant relative redshift (gravitational), the deflection of light simply projects it into all directions locally. The dipole moment arises from the relative motion of the solar system. There is also some scattering from intergalactic gas or the hot x-ray emitting gas in local clusters.
Edited by Alphabob, : No reason given.
Edited by Alphabob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by NoNukes, posted 07-10-2013 2:04 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by NoNukes, posted 07-11-2013 6:52 PM Alphabob has replied

  
Alphabob
Member (Idle past 1104 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 06-28-2013


Message 132 of 223 (702813)
07-11-2013 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jasonlang
07-11-2013 7:42 AM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
I'm not going to worry about a single typo over 43 posts. I know the difference between purpose and proposed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jasonlang, posted 07-11-2013 7:42 AM jasonlang has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 223 (702845)
07-11-2013 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Alphabob
07-11-2013 12:55 PM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
As for the CMBR, the temperature appears isotropic because only gravitational redshift and relative motion will vary it. With the surface of the central core having constant relative redshift (gravitational), the deflection of light simply projects it into all directions locally. The dipole moment arises from the relative motion of the solar system. There is also some scattering from intergalactic gas or the hot x-ray emitting gas in local clusters.
This would need to be backed up by some math. I read this claim in your paper and it wasn't well supported there either. It is counter-intuitive that CMBR would come from a single point in a non-expanding universe and yet still be traveling towards us from all directions billions of years after it was emitted and appear almost completely isotropic. On the other hand, that state of affairs is easily understood from standard cosmology.
Added by Edit
What should be seen according to my theory is a directional dependence of distance versus redshift for SNIa.
This is not an answer to any question that I asked you.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Alphabob, posted 07-11-2013 12:55 PM Alphabob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Alphabob, posted 07-12-2013 1:04 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Alphabob
Member (Idle past 1104 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 06-28-2013


Message 134 of 223 (702898)
07-12-2013 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by NoNukes
07-11-2013 6:52 PM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
quote:
What is being asked here is to distinguish between what we ought to see in directions along and perpendicular to the direction to the galactic core according to your hypothesis about the universe. Can you make a specific prediction that we can compare with reality.
quote:
What should be seen according to my theory is a directional dependence of distance versus redshift for SNIa. So the plot of SNIa provides exactly what is predicted by my model.
Some directions travel more distance than others until they sufficiently deflect towards the central region. So by measuring the redshift and distance of SNIa in all directions, the specific predictions of my model can be compared to realilty. As for redshift below 0.1z, the galaxies with blueshift are concentrated in specific regions. My theory predicts for blueshift to occur more frequently in directions perpendicular to the central core. However, there are also bulk flows of clusters and SNIa locally; so every aspect cannot be defined by a single equation. My equations only provide the entire range of redshift versus distance, not the directional dependence.
quote:
This would need to be backed up by some math. I read this claim in your paper and it wasn't well supported there either. It is counter-intuitive that CMBR would come from a single point in a non-expanding universe and yet still be traveling towards us from all directions billions of years after it was emitted and appear almost completely isotropic. On the other hand, that state of affairs is easily understood from standard cosmology.
It is backed by math, that is what multipoles are. The relativistic jets are clearly visible on the cleaned CMBR image and show up in the quadrupole+octupole. The quadrupole moment aligns with the central core and the location of these jets. The source of the CMBR has always existed, so the universe is saturated with electromagnetic energy from the classical black body radiation. If our perspective is that of galaxies and clusters falling back towards the central region, then the source of the CMBR must also be projected in all directions locally. The theory is a steady state with embedded bulk flows.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by NoNukes, posted 07-11-2013 6:52 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 135 of 223 (703256)
07-17-2013 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Dr Adequate
07-09-2013 9:39 PM


Re: Call for CaveDiver or Son Goku
Now, how does a completely asymmetric cause have a completely symmetric effect?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2013 9:39 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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