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Author Topic:   Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 436 of 759 (702618)
07-10-2013 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 435 by Faith
07-10-2013 10:20 AM


Re: It's A Long Road.
God punishes SIN, evil behavior ...
You do realize that the sin committed, the evil that was done, was to have been born, remember?
Don't talk to me about reversing good and evil. Your god, your religion is the most evil thing to have ever come from the minds of men. It is an abomination, a stench in the nostrils of all humanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 10:20 AM Faith has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 437 of 759 (702619)
07-10-2013 10:38 AM


Perhaps Faith could take her rabid ACLU bashing to another thread and leave this one to the topic of gay marriage.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by AZPaul3, posted 07-10-2013 10:40 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied
 Message 440 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 10:51 AM subbie has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 438 of 759 (702620)
07-10-2013 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by subbie
07-10-2013 10:38 AM


Yeah, and I hooked into it and helped in the derailment.
I stop.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by subbie, posted 07-10-2013 10:38 AM subbie has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 439 of 759 (702621)
07-10-2013 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by PaulK
07-10-2013 10:15 AM


Re: It's A Long Road.
Well, of course you would, that's what I've been saying you do. You would also commit the fallacy of poisoning the well by misdefining my views as Orwellian tyranny etc. etc. You've said only what I've been saying you all say, why bother to repeat it? Oh I know why: if you just keep saying it you'll get everybody to believe it.
Excuse me, but you are the one who reacted to a mention of the ACLU with hate and lies.
No, that is what you mischaracterized me as doing. I responded with the truth about the ACLU. And where does this insane idea of "hate" come into all this anyway? Bunch of postmodernist bigotry, that's all that is, designed to discredit those who tell the truth about such things.
And it's hard to see your objection as based on anything other than the fact that the ACLU defends freedoms that you don't like, despite the Constitutional guarantees.
Yes, it is apparently hard for all of you to see this rightly. "Freedoms that I don't like" is all you can make of the insane granting of "rights" to criminal and sociopathic speech and behavior. Advocating the murder of Jews is merely a "freedom I don't like," advocating the molestation of little boys is merely a "freedom I don't like." Is it really possible that you all can't even process this obvious point?
And you have certainly talked of feeling that you have a duty to suppress views that you don't like.
I believe society has a duty to CRIMINALIZE CRIMINAL SPEECH AND BEHAVIOR, in the cases under consideration the advocacy and action of harming, murdering, molesting, exploiting innocents. This is what you persist in calling "views that I don't like" as if they are perfectly legitimate points of view in themselves, apparently unable to see the insanity in this way of characterizing these things.
My point of course is there is no right to "free speech" of a criminal and sociopathic sort except in the revisionist mindset you all share, and the idea that such freedoms were ever intended to apply to "people who advocate abhorrent things" is a perfect example of that revisionist mindset that the ACLU pursues, against any sane understanding of the Constitutional freedoms that prevailed until really quite recently. I guess it all started with the insane idea that pornography is freedom of speech. Bring down civilization, that's exactly what they want to do.
qs\ Since to the best pf my knowledge the ACLU acted within the legal system in all the cases that you mentioned, I suggest that your problem is with the courts - although I guess that you are also arguing that even legal representation should be denied ? And if you aren't then why object to the ACLU providing legal representation?
The conversation has focused on the agenda of the ACLU, but yes I also have an objection to the courts, and sometimes it is hard to tell who influenced whom. The whole system is now corrupt, pursuing a bogus revisionist interpretation of the Constitution, called "legal" just because they illegitimately made it legal.
There never was any "right to speak" for people who advocate the stuff NAMBLA advocates. And how nave of you all to think that supporting the right to advocacy of abhorrent things is somehow not to support the doing of those abhorrent things.
Here you assume that protecting the right to free speech is not a valid objective in itself.
No, I'm objecting to the revisionist idea of what constitutes free speech. What was originally about the right to advocate the overthrow of the King without threat of imprisonment and that sort of thing, has been insanely extended to define a "right" to advocate what were always considered to be criminal or sociopathic acts. The very idea would horrify the Constitutional generation.
But why ? And why attack the ACLU when it "supports" views like yours to the same extent ?
But not on the right grounds.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by PaulK, posted 07-10-2013 10:15 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by PaulK, posted 07-10-2013 1:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 440 of 759 (702622)
07-10-2013 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 437 by subbie
07-10-2013 10:38 AM


Perhaps Faith could take her rabid ACLU bashing to another thread and leave this one to the topic of gay marriage.
Gay marriage is of course just the latest attempt to bring down civilization by such as the ACLU and the rest of the revisionist "legal" system. I can bash THAT sort of criminal insanity too if you like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by subbie, posted 07-10-2013 10:38 AM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by subbie, posted 07-10-2013 10:57 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 442 by onifre, posted 07-10-2013 11:01 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 445 by yenmor, posted 07-10-2013 1:42 PM Faith has replied
 Message 495 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-11-2013 10:44 AM Faith has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 441 of 759 (702624)
07-10-2013 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by Faith
07-10-2013 10:51 AM


You are free to bash anything you like, but please stay on topic in this thread.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 10:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(5)
Message 442 of 759 (702626)
07-10-2013 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by Faith
07-10-2013 10:51 AM


Gay marriage is of course just the latest attempt to bring down civilization
You truly believe gay marriage is an attempt to bring down our civilization? Have you been to a predominantly gay neighborhood before? It's beautiful! Cupcakes, lots of cupcakes.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 10:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 443 of 759 (702630)
07-10-2013 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 435 by Faith
07-10-2013 10:20 AM


Re: It's A Long Road.
God punishes SIN, evil behavior...
Robert A. Heinlein - "Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other sins are invented nonsense."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 10:20 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 444 of 759 (702644)
07-10-2013 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by Faith
07-10-2013 10:46 AM


Re: It's A Long Road.
Lots of inversion, lots of projection, very little truth there. But since it's off topic I'll stop at that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 10:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3656 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


Message 445 of 759 (702649)
07-10-2013 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Faith
07-10-2013 10:51 AM


Faith writes:
Gay marriage is of course just the latest attempt to bring down civilization by such as the ACLU and the rest of the revisionist "legal" system. I can bash THAT sort of criminal insanity too if you like.
First of all, please know that I do not doubt your sincerity regarding this topic.
I'm a man currently living with another man. At the moment, he is still in college, so we've decided to hold off everything until he's done with everything. We understand other people's disdain of our relationship, which is why every time my family has a family meet (like this past 4th of July celebration) I would always attend alone.
We both want to raise a family together down the road. We both want to share the same insurance policy, the same tax reports, etc.
What advice can you give us in this matter? How should we go about raising a family together, if at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 10:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 6:24 PM yenmor has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 446 of 759 (702673)
07-10-2013 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by yenmor
07-10-2013 1:42 PM


You want my advice? My advice would be that you can live together if you want but you shouldn't try to impose your situation on the rest of society by demanding that your living situation be treated as a marriage. I have no idea what you might do about the insurance and the taxes and I think that's rather a self-centered conceit that you want to share them as if you were a normal married couple.
I believe children need a stable traditional family with heterosexual parents so I don't think gays should have children at all. I also understand that there is evidence children raised by gays tend to be depressed, which makes sense to me. Even if the whole society says it's OK a child is going to know there's something wrong with the situation. And have to suppress such feelings too because supposedly it's just another normal alternative. It's not that I think gays are bad people who wouldn't try to do a good job raising kids and even succeed, in some cases better than traditional families, I concede that possibility, I just don't think it's right to stack the deck psychologically against what has always been considered normal family life. Children should be given a chance at a normal life as long as there is a choice in the matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by yenmor, posted 07-10-2013 1:42 PM yenmor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by hooah212002, posted 07-10-2013 6:51 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 448 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-10-2013 7:02 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 449 by yenmor, posted 07-10-2013 7:17 PM Faith has replied
 Message 450 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-10-2013 7:27 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 451 by hooah212002, posted 07-10-2013 7:45 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 485 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-11-2013 4:06 AM Faith has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 447 of 759 (702676)
07-10-2013 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Faith
07-10-2013 6:24 PM


No. Those words I just deleted would make me not much further up the chain than you. I won't sink to your putrid level.
You are a misguided person and could do well with some humanity classes.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 6:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 448 of 759 (702678)
07-10-2013 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Faith
07-10-2013 6:24 PM


You want my advice? My advice would be that you can live together if you want but you shouldn't try to impose your situation on the rest of society by demanding that your living situation be treated as a marriage.
Why not? My wife and I imposed our situation on the rest of society by demanding that our living situation be treated as a marriage (or "got married", as people with less time on their hands than you would put it) and no-one complained. Every year, 4.6 million Americans impose their situation on the rest of society by demanding that their living situation be treated as a marriage. So why shouldn't yenmor and his boyfriend? How would two more people imposing their situation on the rest of society by demanding that their living situation be treated as a marriage make any difference?
If it's just because they're gay, then perhaps you could come up with some specific arguments against gay impositionofone'ssituationontherestofsocietybydemandingthatone'slivingsituationbetreatedasamarriage. Or perhaps not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 6:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
yenmor
Member (Idle past 3656 days)
Posts: 145
Joined: 07-01-2013


(3)
Message 449 of 759 (702680)
07-10-2013 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Faith
07-10-2013 6:24 PM


I'm wondering if there is anything I can say to change your mind.
Let's take a look at one thing at a time.
Faith writes:
I believe children need a stable traditional family with heterosexual parents so I don't think gays should have children at all. I also understand that there is evidence children raised by gays tend to be depressed, which makes sense to me.
According to the latest research in this matter, researchers have consistently reached the result that children with same-sex parents tend to be healthier than children with hetero-parents.
World's largest study on gay parents finds the kids are more than all right | Salon.com
Children of same-sex couples thriving: study
Study: Children of Same-Sex Parents Are Healthier Than Peers
ACHESS — The Australian study of child health in same-sex families: background research, design and methodology | BMC Public Health | Full Text
Gay Parents Raise Healthier Kids: Study Debated On HuffPost Live | HuffPost Voices
Study Debunks Claim That Kids of Same-Sex Parents Do Less Well | Southern Poverty Law Center
Would it be fair for me to say that if my partner and I start adopting children that they will fair better than if they spend their lives in the system until they turn 18?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 6:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by nwr, posted 07-10-2013 7:59 PM yenmor has not replied
 Message 456 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 9:48 PM yenmor has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 450 of 759 (702681)
07-10-2013 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Faith
07-10-2013 6:24 PM


I believe children need a stable traditional family with heterosexual parents so I don't think gays should have children at all. I also understand that there is evidence children raised by gays tend to be depressed, which makes sense to me.
But the data shows the exact opposite, as yenmor just pointed out (I was going to post those links).
So in the interests of the children you should be in favor of gay people raising kids --- indeed, you should be campaigning for gay couples to be given preferential treatment when it comes to adoption, for the sake of the children. Why "stack the deck" against them by dooming them to being raised by one of those statistically substandard heterosexual families? That's assuming that you give a damn about the children, and weren't just looking for any desperate excuse to discriminate against gay people. Perish the thought.
Even if the whole society says it's OK a child is going to know there's something wrong with the situation.
Obviously not. Superstitions have to be inculcated, or they perish. If no-one communicated the idea that breaking a mirror brings seven years' bad luck, then the next generation wouldn't believe it, it would hardly be likely to arise spontaneously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Faith, posted 07-10-2013 6:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
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