Landmark gay marriage trial starts today in California

Though on this thread these supposed statistics don't seem to be saying anything. So all the data that anyone's been bothered to actually produce says one thing --- and our old friend Faith, who practically makes a hobby of being wrong, says another. Hmm, what to believe?

The Religious Right must live in a state of permanent shock.---RR1: Look! Look over there! Some fiends are doing something ghastly to a word!RR2: Which word? Your eyesight is better than mine.RR1: I think it's ... yes, yes, it's "plant".RR2: A fine, upstanding word. What a tragedy that it should fall into enemy hands. What are they doing to it?RR1: I hardly know how to break it to you ... they're ... they're redefining it.RR2: OH MY GOD!RR1: I know, it's brutal. They're taking the part of its definition that says it includes fungi and they're cutting it off. Without anesthetic!RR2: How awful! How tragic!RR1: All societies have always defined plants as including fungi ...RR2: Is that actually true?RR1: So far as I know. Remember how we talked about how you shouldn't ask questions like that?RR2: Oh, sorry.RR1: And now the forces of evil have redefined it. It would have been more humane just to have shot it in the head.RR2: The ... head?RR1: The letter p.RR2: The poor innocent word!RR1: Say, I know what'll cheer us up ... let's go and lynch us some queers.RR2: Is that ... is that OK?RR1: Sure, why not? They're only people.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

You are making "sexual orientation" out to be something we should all simply take for granted, and pedophilia is presumably a "sexual orientation." What else would it be? That's how it fits into the discussion.Besides, while there are gays who want to live together in a stable marriage situation, there are others who live a lifestyle that spreads AIDS, which is the disease of homosexuality. Homosexuality is not just a "sexual orientation," it's an aberration, it is an unnatural use of the human body, and it spreads disease.

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And just to answer the nonsense about how a couple calling themselves married doesn't affect the rest of us, our individual marriages and all that craziness, that's not the point and has never been the point.

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If you start making absurd claims about a "threat" to marriage I think pointing out that there is no real threat there at all is very relevant. Heterosexual marriage will NOT BE CHANGED AT ALL by gay marriage.

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The point is how a whole society defines marriage and that's what changes.

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And marriage HAS changed. It has changed in ways that make the legal recognition of gay marriage the just and fair thing to do. You may not approve of those changes but just pretending that they haven't happened is not a good basis for argument.Let's be perfectly honest. The only real change that gay marriage will make is that bigots will find it harder to discriminate against gay couples. That sounds like a good thing to me.

When other people do things that threaten the stability of society, or spread disease, or redefine the ancient practice of marriage and force such ideas on the next generation in so doing, I'd say it's everybody's business.

Statistics can be made to prove anything. Getting into statistics is only going to prolong this already tedious thread.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Again, pedophilia is a "sexual orientation." If you are going to tell us we have to be accepting of all "sexual orientations" then you are implying the same about pedophilia.

Can I ask, why isn't ENCOURAGING monogamous relationships a good answer to the spread of STDs ?And if spreading STDs makes a group unfit to marry can I also ask why you don't apply the same rule to heterosexuals ?

The threat is not to marriages, as I tried to clarify, it's to the SOCIETAL UNDERSTANDING OF MARRIAGE, and that affects everybody.

But you haven't shown that there is any threat we should worry about at all.

I do apply the same rule to heterosexuals. Marriage is in a bad state first of all because heterosexuals have been trashing it for decades now, and yes, STDs are a heterosexual problem due to promiscuity. There are all kinds of sexual sins in our society these days that are socially sanctioned and I agree we should start with heterosexual sins. We get into homosexuality because it's the one on the table seeking legitimization these days. "Encouraging monogamy" is ridiculous when it comes to homosexuality, however. That's either the mindset of the people involved or it's not, many gays would just as soon see marriage destroyed altogether anyway.I really don't think any of this is going to change. The current mindset is against it. The opinions at EvC are a sign of that. I think society is going to continue to self-destruct when it comes to marriage, promiscuity, single parenting and all the rest of it, and we'll get gay marriage too and that will just be the icing on the cake. Wonderful chaotic mess.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

If you don't already see it you aren't going to see it anyway Paul.

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I do apply the same rule to heterosexuals.

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Do you really believe that the spread of STDs is a reason why heterosexuals should not be allowed to marry ? I very much doubt it.

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"Encouraging monogamy" is ridiculous when it comes to homosexuality, however. That's either the mindset of the people involved or it's not,

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Wouldn't a societal endorsement of monogamous relationships act as an encouragement ? And it isn't black and white either - surely the seriousness of the marital commitment would be enough to tip the balance some time for some people.In other words the whole STD issue is a massive red herring. There's no rational argument there at all.

In other words you have no clear understanding of what this imagined threat is.

No, heterosexuals are the only ones QUALIFIED to be married, so of course I didn't mean I advocate their not being married because of STDs. I also don't mean that homosexuals shouldn't marry for that reason, the reason is that they are not qualified to be married because they are not capable of having children. I mentioned AIDS as the specifically homosexual disease, not related to the marriage issue.