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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 31 of 716 (703652)
07-26-2013 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
07-25-2013 3:44 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
The scriptures do in fact indicate two comings of Christ if you know how to read them properly. Even some Jewish commentators find two different Messiahs in the Hebrew scriptures, the Suffering Servant and the Warrior King, ben Joseph and ben David being the names they assigned these two anointed ones I think though I may not remember the names rightly. And some even considered that there might be three Messiahs. This is because the scriptures present different portraits of Him. (A book on Jewish Messianic teachings by Raphael Patai, a nonChristian Jew, is my main source for this information).
"Read them properly"
You mjean, like taking things out of context and mistranslation, and ignoring all the details that don't coincide with your predetermined belief?

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 32 of 716 (703653)
07-26-2013 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by New Cat's Eye
07-25-2013 10:12 AM


Or, even more to the point, the passages claimed to be prophecies, well, are not prophecies?? That is true for a lot of the passages quoted.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 33 of 716 (703654)
07-26-2013 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
07-25-2013 12:40 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
Isaiah 52 and 53 are talking about the Nation of Israel. If you read it in context, Isaiah explicitly identifies the servant as that nation of Israel
Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”
Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim
it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”
Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 716 (703655)
07-26-2013 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ramoss
07-26-2013 7:14 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
No, that's what the people do who don't see two comings of Christ.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 716 (703656)
07-26-2013 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ramoss
07-26-2013 7:20 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
There is a lot of ambiguity in all the messianic passages, but usually the ambiguity itself, along with sudden changes of focus, is what gives the clue that they are prophetic. There is some blurring of the identity of the Messiah WITH Israel as a whole, for instance, because He stands for Israel, He is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise to be the blessing to the world that the Jews as a people never were and never will be. If you read those passages honestly most of what is described of the "servant" couldn't possibly describe Israel as a whole.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 36 of 716 (703657)
07-26-2013 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
07-26-2013 2:49 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Here is where you are not understanding what a messiah is. In Jewish culture , messiah, means 'Anointed one'. Kings are considered 'anointed ones', as well as the high priest in the temple. That means Cyprus was a messiah.. a king.
In this case, the author of the Book of Daniel , which was written in 164 BCE, was writing a propaganda piece to try to encourage people against Antioch IV.
W. Sibley Towner writes: "Daniel is one of the few OT books that can be given a fairly firm date. In the form in which we have it (perhaps without the additions of 12:11, 12), the book must have been given its final form some time in the years 167-164 B.C. This dating is based upon two assumptions: first, that the authors lived at the later end of the historical surveys that characterize Daniel 7-12; and second, that prophecy is accurate only when it is given after the fact, whereas predictions about the future tend to run astray. Based upon these assumptions, the references to the desecration of the Temple and the 'abomination that makes desolate' in 8:9-12; 9:27; and 11:31 must refer to events known to the author. The best candidates for the historical referents of these events are the desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the erection in it of a pagan altar in the autumn of 167 B.C. by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The inaccurate description of the end of Antiochus' reign and his death in 11:40-45, on the other hand, suggests that the author did not know of those events, which occurred late in 164 or early in 163 B.C. The roots of the hagiographa (idealizing stories) about Daniel and his friends in chaps. 1-6 may date to an earlier time, but the entire work was given its final shape in 164 B.C." (Harper's Bible Commentary, p. 696)
Louis F. Hartman writes: "Having lost sight of these ancient modes of writing, until relatively recent years Jews and Christians have considered Dn to be true history, containing genuine prophecy. Inasmuch as chs. 7-12 are written in the first person, it was natural to assume that Daniel in chs. 1-6 was a truly historical character and that he was the author of the whole book. There would be few modern biblical scholars, however, who would now seriously defend such an opinion. The arguments for a date shortly before the death of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 164 are overwhelming. An author living in the 6th cent. could hardly have written the late Hebrew used in Dn, and its Aramaic is certainly later than the Aramaic of the Elephantine papyri, which date from the end of the 5th cent. The theological outlook of the author, with his interest in angelology, his apocalyptic rather than prophetic vision, and especially his belief in the resurrection of the dead, points unescapably to a period long after the Babylonian Exile. His historical perspective, often hazy for events in the time of the Babylonian and Persian kings but much clearer for the events during the Seleucid Dynasty, indicates the Hellenistic age. Finally, his detailed description of the profanation of the Temple of Jerusalem by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 and the following persecution (9:27; 11:30-35) contrasted with his merely general reference to the evil end that would surely come to such a wicked man (11:45), indicates a composition date shortly before the death of this king in 164, therefore probably in 165." (The Jerome Biblical Commentary, vol. 1, p. 448)

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 Message 26 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 2:49 PM Faith has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 716 (703658)
07-26-2013 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ramoss
07-26-2013 7:20 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
Of course, if Faith's assertion of two Messiahs were true then Jesus according to her argument is NOT the Messiah or is a failed Messiah.
The suffering servant may have been fulfilled but not the avenging despot. So by her very argument Jesus is NOT the Messiah.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 38 of 716 (703663)
07-27-2013 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
07-26-2013 6:26 PM


Re: Daniel 9
quote:
Also, wherever a "Messiah" is spoken of by that title alone, without giving the identity of the one anointed -- such as Saul or David or Solomon and so on -- it is understood to refer to THE Messiah promised and prophesied down the centuries from Eden, who will save the people from their sins
That may be the way your idols interpret it, but that's hardly a good reason to insist on it.
quote:
The fact that there are many ordinary messiahs is irrelevant and a red herring, since all the anointed ones but THE Anointed One are clearly identified.
In other words the fact that you are making a completely unjustified assumption is "irrelevant". Hardly the words of someone with a genuine interest in the truth!
The fact is that there is no sound basis to conclude that this passage is about The Messiah. Your claim that it was explicitly about The Messiah is an obvious falsehood as can be seen by anyone who understands that "messiah" is a title applicable to many individuals - as you do. And that is why you will not discuss this issue with me - because you know that I am telling the truth.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 39 of 716 (703665)
07-27-2013 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by ramoss
07-26-2013 7:32 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
Here is where you are not understanding what a messiah is. In Jewish culture , messiah, means 'Anointed one'. Kings are considered 'anointed ones', as well as the high priest in the temple. That means Cyprus was a messiah.. a king.
Indeed, and I've acknowledged that fact many times here already.
And as I've also pointed out at length, based on the study by Raphael Patai, it is some of the best teachers of Jewish culture who understand the Suffering and Dying Servant scriptures to be messianic, along with all the other messianic scriptures Christians also recognize. Babylonian Talmud, Haggadah, Midrash, particular rabbis etc etc etc.
In this case, the author of the Book of Daniel
Daniel the prophet himself of course, because the book makes absolutely no sense at all written by anyone else who came later.
which was written in 164 BCE,
Only according to unbelieving "scholars" who dated it so late simply because they refuse to believe in prophecy, which is in fact affirmed in your quotations of such "scholars," but such a late date destroys the whole context and coherence of the book, and makes a liar out of its writers, something unbelievers in the supernatural love to do of course. It only holds together when it is acknowledged to have been written by the great prophet Daniel himself writing toward the end of the Babylonian captivity, chapter 9 having been written, according to my sources, around 538 BC, almost 400 years earlier. It is genuine prophecy, beautiful prophecy.
was writing a propaganda piece to try to encourage people against Antioch IV.
One of those Likely Stories made up by unbelievers, but if you actually READ Daniel you couldn't possibly believe such nonsense without committing some pretty terrible false witness against him. He prophesied of Antiochus Epiphanes, and much before and after that character as well.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 40 of 716 (703666)
07-27-2013 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
07-26-2013 7:43 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
Of course, if Faith's assertion of two Messiahs were true then Jesus according to her argument is NOT the Messiah or is a failed Messiah.
However, of course, Faith did NOT make any such assertion. Faith pointed out that some Jewish Bible interpreters down the centuries, including writers of the Babylonian Talmud etc etc etc, came up with the idea of two Messiahs because they recognized the two different portraits of the Messiah in the scripture, the Suffering Servant portrait and the Warrior King portrait, and that is how THEY reconciled the two. It is NOT how I or Christians reconcile the two portraits. We reconcile them by understanding that the one and only Messiah Jesus of Nazareth came the first time as the Suffering Servant and will come a second and last time as the Warrior King to take vengeance on God's enemies.
The question is whether you have a reading problem or simply enjoy misrepresenting whatever I say. Which is it?
The suffering servant may have been fulfilled but not the avenging despot.
Uh huh, but remember that it is the "avenging despot" that Eliyahu, along with Orthodox Jews in general, believe is THE Messiah who is yet to come, having denied that there is anything messianic about the Suffering Servant passages of scripture. They disagree with the Jewish sources referenced in the book by Raphael Patai that I have referred to above.
And again, Christians reconcile the two portraits of the Messiah in the Hebrew scriptures in terms of two separate advents. We are still in the time of grace since His first advent when He came as Suffering Servant to die for our sins, but He's coming again as the Warrior King, most likely not too far in the future.
So by her very argument Jesus is NOT the Messiah
Not MY argument, jar, as you either know but prefer to misrepresent, or failed to grasp because of reading problems.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 41 of 716 (703667)
07-27-2013 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Eliyahu
07-26-2013 10:04 AM


Just a little note to Eliyahu as I take my leave
Or hope I'm taking my leave from this typical EvC exercise in confusion.
I would just like to say that I've had extensive discussions with Orthodox Jews and I can come up with arguments to answer your arguments pretty much point by point thanks to that experience. Of course you will not change your mind and I will not change mine and there we will be, at stalemate in the end. Right now, due to a lot that's going on in my "real" life at the moment, I'm really not up to a repeat of that whole scenario so I would like to bow out of this thread.
But what I'd say to you in parting is that by agreeing with anything the others on this thread have to say you are agreeing with your own worst enemies, IF you are the kind of Orthodox Jewish believer I'm familiar with, because although they will happily agree with all the "liberal" reworkings of scripture you embrace in order to argue with Christians, they despise your belief in God and the supernatural elements of scripture as much as they despise mine. Some here love to denounce the God of the Hebrew scriptures as a "genocidal maniac" and an evil entity invented by the Jews to serve tribal purposes. If you are a true Orthodox believer that shouldn't sit well with you.
You of course are quite happy to side with anything that debunks your hated Christianity and Jesus Christ, but beware because in many important points concerning scripture among other things we are more on your side than these guys here are.
Shalom.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 716 (703675)
07-27-2013 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
07-27-2013 1:37 AM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
Has Jesus come as the Warrior King? If not, then Jesus is NOT the Messiah of the Old Testament.
It really is that simple Faith.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 716 (703676)
07-27-2013 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
07-27-2013 3:26 AM


Isaiah 52:13-15
I'm going to give some commentaries on Isaiah 52:13-15 since I don't have time to go through all of this right now. They speak for Protestant Christianity just fine and of course far better than I could possibly do. Of course much more has to be said -- about Isaiah 42, 49, 50 and 53. But this should be a start:
David Guzik:
B. The Servant of the Lord brings salvation to many nations.
1. (13-14) The exaltation and humiliation of the Servant of the Lord.
Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. Just as many were astonished at you, so His visage was marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men.
a. Behold, My Servant: This passage, through the end of Isaiah 53, has in focus the Servant of the Lord. This is the Servant previously spoken of in Isaiah 42:1, and Isaiah 49:3 and 6.
i. The Ethiopian in Acts 8:24 asked a question about Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12: Of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man? This question is still asked today, and the answer is extremely important.
ii. Through the book of Isaiah, many have been called servants of the Lord in one way or another. This includes Isaiah himself (Isaiah 20:3), Eliakim (Isaiah 22:20), David (Isaiah 37:35), Israel (Isaiah 41:8-9). But there is no doubt that the phrase is also used as a specific title for the Messiah, and this is what is in view here.
iii. The New King James Version rightly capitalizes Servant, because the context demonstrates this is a clear reference to Jesus. Additionally, Matthew quotes Isaiah 42:1-5 and plainly says it is a prophecy fulfilled in Jesus (Matthew 12:16-21). Additionally, in Matthew 8:16-17 the Bible takes this passage of Isaiah 52:13 through 53:12 and says it specifically applies to Jesus.
iv. Many people are amazed that people - especially Jewish people - can read a chapter like this and miss Jesus. But really it isn’t surprising. When we make up our minds about who Jesus is, it’s easy to become blind and deaf to the plain, simple message of the Word of God. Put away your pre-conceived notions and your cultural Jesus. Let the Word of God tell you who He is.
b. He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high: The first words of the Lord in the mouth of the prophet regarding His Servant declare His victory. He shall be exalted and extolled means that the Messiah will triumph. There is no doubt about it. Before any of His suffering is announced, His glorious triumph is assured.
c. His visage was marred more than any man: This speaks of the cruel and vicious beating Jesus endured at the hands of his enemies. Jesus was beaten so badly on His face that He hardly looked like a man. The result was so shocking that many were astonished when they saw Jesus.
i. Now the men who held Jesus mocked Him and beat Him. And having blindfolded Him, they struck Him on the face and asked Him, saying, Prophesy! Who is the one who struck You? (Luke 22:63-64)
ii. The astonishment mentioned may be subtly referred to in the New Testament. On several occasions after His resurrection, the followers of Jesus were slow to recognize Him (Luke 24:16; John 20:14, and 21:4). On one occasion, they even seem awkward about His appearance: Yet none of the disciples dared ask Him, Who are You? - knowing that it was the Lord. (John 21:12) This may indicate that the marred visage of Jesus remained after His resurrection. We know that Jesus retained some of the scars of His crucifixion (Luke 24:40; John 20:25-28), perhaps this extends to His face as well. However, we should not be troubled by the thought of seeing an ugly Jesus in heaven. If those scars do remain, they will only increase His glory and beauty to our eyes, standing as badges of His matchless love.
iii. More than any man does not literally mean that by appearances, Jesus was beaten more severely than any many would ever be beaten. It is a poetic hyperbole used to express the terrible effect of the beating He endured.
2. (15) The cleansing of many nations.
So shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; for what had not been told them they shall see, and what they had not heard they shall consider.
a. So shall He sprinkle many nations: Sprinkling is often associated with cleansing from sin in the Old Testament (Exodus 24:8; Leviticus 3:6; Numbers 19:21; Ezekiel 36:25). Here, the promise is that the work of the Messiah will bring cleansing to many nations.
i. The Messiah is certainly Israel’s Messiah; yet He belongs to more than Israel. His saving, cleansing work will extend far beyond Israel to many nations.
b. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him: Though all will be astonished at His appearance, they will have nothing to say against Him. His glory and His great work will stop every word. When they spoke against Him before, it was in blindness, but now what had not been told them they shall see.
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown:
13. Here the fifty-third chapter ought to begin, and the fifty-second chapter end with Isa 52:12 . This section, from here to end of the fifty-third chapter settles the controversy with the Jews, if Messiah be the person meant; and with infidels, if written by Isaiah, or at any time before Christ. The correspondence with the life and death of Jesus Christ is so minute, that it could not have resulted from conjecture or accident. An impostor could not have shaped the course of events so as to have made his character and life appear to be a fulfilment of it. The writing is, moreover, declaredly prophetic. The quotations of it in the New Testament show: (1) that it was, before the time of Jesus, a recognized part of the Old Testament; (2) that it refers to Messiah ( Mat 8:17 Mar 15:28 Luk 22:37 Jhn 12:38 Act 8:28-35 Rom 10:16 1Pe 2:21-25 ). The indirect allusions to it still more clearly prove the Messianic interpretation; so universal was that interpretation, that it is simply referred to in connection with the atoning virtue of His death, without being formally quoted ( Mar 9:12 Rom 4:25 1Cr 15:3 2Cr 5:21 1Pe 1:19 2:21-25 1Jo 3:5 ).
The genuineness of the passage is certain; for the Jews would not have forged it, since it is opposed to their notion of Messiah, as a triumphant temporal prince. The Christians could not have forged it; for the Jews, the enemies of Christianity, are "our librarians" [PALEY]. The Jews try to evade its force by the figment of two Messiahs, one a suffering Messiah (Ben Joseph), the other a triumphant Messiah (Ben David).
HILLEL maintained that Messiah has already come in the person of Hezekiah. BUXTORF states that many of the modern Rabbins believe that He has been come a good while, but will not manifest Himself because of the sins of the Jews. But the ancient Jews, as the Chaldee paraphrast, Jonathan, refer it to Messiah; so the Medrasch Tauchuma (a commentary on the Pentateuch); also Rabbi Moses Haddarschan (see HENGSTENBERG, Christology of the Old Testament).
Some explain it of the Jewish people, either in the Babylonish exile, or in their present sufferings and dispersion. Others, the pious portion of the nation taken collectively, whose sufferings made a vicarious satisfaction for the ungodly. Others, Isaiah, or Jeremiah [GESENIUS], the prophets collectively.
But an individual is plainly described: he suffers voluntarily, innocently, patiently, and as the efficient cause of the righteousness of His people, which holds good of none other but Messiah
( Isa 53:4-6, 9, 11 ; contrast Jer 20:7 15:10-21 Psa 137:8, 9 ). Isa 53:9 can hold good of none other. The objection that the sufferings ( Isa 53:1-10 ) referred to are represented as past, the glorification alone as future ( Isa 52:13-15 53:11, 12 ) arises from not seeing that the prophet takes his stand in the midst of the scenes which he describes as future. The greater nearness of the first advent, and the interval between it and the second, are implied by the use of the past tense as to the first, the future as to the second.
Behold--awakening attention to the striking picture of Messiah that follows (compare Jhn 19:5, 14 ).
my servant--Messiah ( Isa 42:1 ).
deal prudently--rather, "prosper" [GESENIUS] as the parallel clause favors ( Isa 53:10 ). Or, uniting both meanings, "shall reign well" [HENGSTENBERG]. This verse sets forth in the beginning the ultimate issue of His sufferings, the description of which follows: the conclusion ( Isa 53:12 ) corresponds; the section ( Isa 52:13 53:12 ) begins as it ends with His final glory.
extolled--elevated ( Mar 16:19 Eph 1:20-22 1Pe 3:22 ).
14, 15. Summary of Messiah's history, which is set forth more in detail in the fifty-third chapter. "Just as many were astonished (accompanied with aversion, Jer 18:16 19:8 ), &c.; his visage, &c.; so shall He sprinkle," &c.; Israel in this answers to its antitype Messiah, now "an astonishment and byword" ( Deu 28:37 ), hereafter about to be a blessing and means of salvation to many nations ( Isa 2:2, 3 Mic 5:7 ).
thee; his--Such changes of persons are common in Hebrew poetry.
marred--Hebrew, "disfigurement"; abstract for concrete; not only disfigured, but disfigurement itself.
more than man--CASTALIO translates, "so that it was no longer that of a man" (compare Psa 22:6 ). The more perfect we may suppose the "body prepared" ( Hbr 10:5 ) for Him by God, the sadder by contrast was the "marring" of His visage and form.
15. sprinkle many--GESENIUS, for the antithesis to "be astonished," translates, "shall cause . . . to exult." But the word universally in the Old Testament means either to sprinkle with blood, as the high priest makes an expiation ( Lev 4:6 16:18, 19 ); or with water, to purify ( Eze 36:25 ; compare as to the Spirit, Act 2:33 ), both appropriate to Messiah ( Jhn 13:8 Hbr 9:13, 14 10:22 12:24 1Pe 1:2 ). The antithesis is sufficient without any forced rendering. Many were astonished; so many (not merely men, but) nations shall be sprinkled. They were amazed at such an abject person claiming to be Messiah; yet it is He who shall justify and purify. Men were dumb with the amazement of scorn at one marred more than the lowest of men, yet the highest: even kings ( Isa 49:7, 23 ) shall be dumb with awe and veneration ("shut . . . mouths"; Job 29:9, 10 Mic 7:16 ).
that . . . not . . . told them--the reason why kings shall so venerate them; the wonders of redemption, which had not been before told them, shall then be announced to them, wonders such as they had never heard or seen parallelled ( Isa 55:1 Rom 15:21 16:25, 26 ).
Matthew Henry:
Isa 52:13-15
Here, as in other places, for the confirming of the faith of God’s people and the encouraging of their hope in the promises of temporal deliverances, the prophet passes from them to speak of the great salvation which should in the fulness of time be wrought out by the Messiah. As the prophecy of Christ’s incarnation was intended for the ratification of the promise of their deliverance from the Assyrian army, so this of Christ’s death and resurrection is to confirm the promise of their return out of Babylon; for both these salvations were typical of the great redemption and the prophecies of them had a reference to that.
This prophecy, which begins here and is continued to the end of the next chapter, points as plainly as can be at Jesus Christ; the ancient Jews understood it of the Messiah, though the modern Jews take a great deal of pains to pervert it, and some of ours (no friends therein to the Christian religion) will have it understood of Jeremiah; but Philip, who hence preached Christ to the eunuch, has put it past dispute that of him speaks the prophet this, of him and of no other man, Acts 8:34, 35. Here,
I. God owns Christ to be both commissioned and qualified for his undertaking. 1. He is appointed to it. "He is my servant, whom I employ and therefore will uphold.’’ In his undertaking he does his Father’s will, seeks his Father’s honour, and serves the interests of his Father’s kingdom. 2. He is qualified for it. He shall deal prudently, for the spirit of wisdom and understanding shall rest upon him, ch. 11:2. The word is used concerning David when he behaved himself wisely, 1 Sa. 18:14. Christ is wisdom itself, and, in the contriving and carrying on the work of our redemption, there appeared much of the wisdom of God in a mystery, 1 Co. 2:7. Christ, when he was here upon earth, dealt very prudently, to the admiration of all.
II. He gives a short prospect both of his humiliation and his exaltation. See here, 1. How he humbled himself: Many were astonished at him, as they were at David when by reason of his sorrows and troubles he became a wonder unto many, Ps. 71:7. Many wondered to see what base usage he met with, how inveterate people were against him, how inhuman, and what indignities were done him: His visage was marred more than any man’s when he was buffeted, smitten on the cheek, and crowned with thorns, and hid not his face from shame and spitting. His face was foul with weeping, for he was a man of sorrows; he that really was fairer than the children of men had his face spoiled with the abuses that were done him. Never was man used so barbarously; his form, when he took upon him the form of a servant, was more mean and abject than that of any of the sons of men. Those that saw him said, "Surely never man looked so miserably, a worm and no man,’’ Ps. 22:6. The nation abhorred him (ch. 49:7), treated him as the off-scouring of all things. Never was sorrow like unto his sorrow. 2. How highly God exalted him, and exalted him because he humbled himself. Three words are used for this (v. 13): He shalt be exalted and extolled and be very high. God shall exalt him, men shall extol him, and with both he shall be very high, higher than the highest, higher than the heavens. He shall prosper in his work, and succeed in it, and that shall raise him very high. (1.) Many nations shall be the better for him, for he shall sprinkle them, and not the Jews only; the blood of sprinkling shall be applied to their consciences, to purify them. He suffered, and died, and so sprinkled many nations; for in his death there was a fountain opened, Zec. 13:1. He shall sprinkle many nations by his heavenly doctrine, which shall drop as the rain and distil as the dew. Moses’s did so only on one nation (Deu. 32:2), but Christ’s on many nations. He shall do it by baptism, which is the washing of the body with pure water, Heb. 10:22. So that this promise had its accomplishment when Christ sent his apostles to disciple all nations, by baptizing or sprinkling them. (2.) The great ones of the nation shall show him respect: Kings shall shut their mouths at him, that is, they shall not open their mouths against him, as they have done, to contradict and blaspheme his sacred oracles; nay, they shall acquiesce in, and be well pleased with, the methods he takes of setting up his kingdom in the world; they shall with great humility and reverence receive his oracles and laws, as those who, when they heard Job’s wisdom, after his speech spoke not again, Job 29:9, 22. Kings shall see and arise, ch. 49:7. (3.) The mystery which was kept secret from the beginning of the world shall by him be made known to all nations for the obedience of faith, as the apostle speaks, Rom. 16:25, 26. That which had not been told them shall they see; the gospel brings to light things new and unheard of, which will awaken the attention and engage the reverence of kings and kingdoms. This is applied to the preaching of the gospel in the Gentile world, Rom. 15:21. These words are there quoted according to the Septuagint translation: To whom he was not spoken of they shall see, and those that have not heard shall understand. As the things revealed had long been kept secret, so the persons to whom they were revealed had long been kept in the dark; but now they shall see and consider the glory of God shining in the face of Christ, which before they had not been told ofthey had not heard. That shall be discovered to them by the gospel of Christ which could never be told them by all the learning of their philosophers, or the art of their diviners, or any of their pagan oracles. Much had been said in the Old Testament concerning the Messiah; much had been told them, and they had heard it. But, as the queen of Sheba found concerning Solomon, what they shall see in him, when he comes, shall far exceed what had been told them. Christ disappointed the expectations of those who looked for a Messiah according to their fancies, as the carnal Jews, but outdid theirs who looked for such a Messiah as was promised. According to their faith, nay, and beyond it, it was to them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 07-27-2013 3:26 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ramoss, posted 07-27-2013 9:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 634 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 44 of 716 (703677)
07-27-2013 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
07-27-2013 8:44 AM


Re: Isaiah 52:13-15
But, they misuse the passage.. they use a bad translation, they read it out of context of the 4th servant song, and they read it with Jesus colored glasses.
It's Jewish scripture.. you Christians just stole it.
As a matter of fact, the anti-semetic tone of the one, claiming the 'jews perverted it',, demonstrates it's lack of credulity.
As for the 'ancient Jews knew it to be the messiah.. they don't back that up at all. That is what is known as 'an unsupported claim'. Indeed, in 'The Dialogue with Trypho' , Justin Martyr acknowledges that Trypho said that the Jews said it was about the nation of Israel.
Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.
Edited by ramoss, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-27-2013 8:44 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Eliyahu, posted 07-27-2013 2:08 PM ramoss has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 45 of 716 (703680)
07-27-2013 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
07-27-2013 1:23 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages
quote:
Daniel the prophet himself of course, because the book makes absolutely no sense at all written by anyone else who came later.
In fact it makes a good deal of sense for it to be written later, and for the Daniel of the book to be a complete fiction. There are clear problems in the book (e.g. "Where's Nabonidus?" - and the failed prophecies) and not one even reasonably clear reference to the man or the book anywhere close to the supposed time of writing.
quote:
One of those Likely Stories made up by unbelievers, but if you actually READ Daniel you couldn't possibly believe such nonsense without committing some pretty terrible false witness against him. He prophesied of Antiochus Epiphanes, and much before and after that character as well.
Having actually READ Daniel, I can say that without doubt Antiochus Epiphanes and the Jewish resistance to his rule are the central focus. Daniel 8, for instance is quite clear that the End Times centre around the Diadochi states. Try READING it for yourself and see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 07-27-2013 1:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
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