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Author Topic:   Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 271 of 304 (703737)
07-29-2013 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Thugpreacha
07-29-2013 2:08 AM


The truth must and will come out
What are you accomplishing here, really? Are you helping anyone get closer to God? (I didn't think so.) Shame.

Bs'd

So you think it is better to let people run after a false idolatrous religion, without showing them the truth??

When they get rid of their idol worship, then they are already a step closer to God.

Then they can start worshipping the one and only true God.

Here is who is that one true God:

Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".
But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.

Exodus 29:46 They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.

Numbers 15:41 I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.

Deuteronomy 10:20-21 Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.

Joshua 24:18 We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.

II Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?

I Chronicles 16:14 He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth

II Chronicles 13:10 As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him

Psalm 31:14 But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.

Psalm 89:6 For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?

Psalm 91:2 I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.

Psalm 100:3 Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.

Psalm 105:7 He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;

Psalm 118:27 Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.

Psalm 140:6 O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God

Isaiah25:1 O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.

Isaiah41:13 For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;

Isaiah43:3 For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

Isaiah 51:15 For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name

Jeremiah 3:22-23 Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God

Jeremiah 10:10 But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;

Jeremiah 31:18 Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.

Habakkuk 1:12 O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.


And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?

Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

II Samuel 7:22 How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.

I Kings 8:60 so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.

I Chronicles 17:20 There is no one like you, OY-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.

II Chronicles 6:14 OY-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.
Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.

Isaiah 45:21-23 You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 45:5-6 I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."

Isaiah 45:21-23 Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;

Exodus 20:1-3 And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.

.

.

In the service of Y-H-W-H,

Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

.

.

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-29-2013 2:08 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 4:45 PM Eliyahu has not yet responded
 Message 273 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 4:49 PM Eliyahu has responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1982 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 272 of 304 (703813)
07-29-2013 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 3:13 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out

So you think it is better to let people run after a false idolatrous religion, without showing them the truth??

Exactly...

Truth is the foundation for man if he wants to avoid personal problems and even the extinction of his species, a second death to his existence.

That was the point Jesus was making, when he stated over and over that he was personifying Truth, as an ideal, even to the point of rising up again like a Phoenix from the ashes of an attempted crucifixion.

The Truth will always arise and continue to confront men until the Facts-of-Life are taken into consideration.

That Christ was a spirit or Ideal representing Truth explains his relationship as the son-of-Reality, that ever unfolding next frame of existence within we are all both trapped and nurtured.

His father is the almost ineffable Force behind the eternal "now" which demands we bow down and adapt or die out forever.

Truth is the Image of The Reality to which it corresponds one-to-one when men conceive it.
Truth is our salvation because we must construct it from the data of seven senses that try to inform us about another "entity" that insists "I am" no matter how much we might try to ignore the Facts of Life.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 3:13 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1982 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 273 of 304 (703815)
07-29-2013 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Eliyahu
07-29-2013 3:13 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out

Exodus 20:1-3 And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.

Yep,...

By the grace of this almighty Reality, Truth is the image by which men can "see" the face of this God:

Gen. 1:26 And God, (Father Nature, Reality), said, Let us, (i.e., his Natural Laws, together, in pan-en-theistic expression of the Spirit of God: [Gen 1:2]), make man, (through the process of gradual evolution ending in the finished Adam i.e.; Jesus),... Let us ((i.e., his Natural Laws) make man, (as a reflection of Reality, in his mind, able, through Truth, to imminently reflect the "I am" of this existence: [John 14:6]), IN OUR IMAGE, (after the spirit of our orderly panentheistic organization): and let them, (men as the Dominant species on earth to this day), have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Eliyahu, posted 07-29-2013 3:13 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by Eliyahu, posted 08-04-2013 7:19 AM kofh2u has responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 274 of 304 (704117)
08-04-2013 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by kofh2u
07-29-2013 4:49 PM


Re: The truth must and will come out
Bs'd

Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.
But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?
Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.
Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?
But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".

BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:

Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."

But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".

No trinity.

Another example of a pronoun:

Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.

As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.

Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.

So no three persons in God.

Another one:

Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Clear what? It doesn't say: This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.

No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.

Another one:

Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;

Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.

I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.

And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.

.

.

In the service of Y-H-W-H,

Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 4:49 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by kofh2u, posted 08-05-2013 2:05 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded
 Message 277 by Archangel, posted 08-05-2013 4:44 PM Eliyahu has responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1982 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 275 of 304 (704143)
08-05-2013 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by Eliyahu
08-04-2013 7:19 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out

One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.

LOL
That tired out old bromide of Majestic non-sense never explained the "Let us."

Majestic connotations have simply was used to cloud the obvious reference in Gen 1:2 to the Great Shechinah, or "spirit of God."
These two entities are the majestic plurality of "Let us."

Clearly, rational thinking understands "us" is that network of interacting forces that create each next frame of this eternally unfolding Reality that shouts out to us, "I am," too, here with you in this great mystery of Life.

...
Gen. 1:2 And the earth was without form, (a spinning cloud of molten matter and gases), and void: (not yet valid as a sphere- i.e.; an accretion disk), and darkness: [choshek: obscurity] was upon the face (of the disk) of the deep: [tehowm: the deep primeval abyss of the thick ring].
And (the great Shechinah), the spirit, (the pan-en-theistic Natural Laws) of God moved upon the face: [paniym: presence] of the "waters" (i.e.; of these transitory things spinning counter clockwise around the Sun: [mayim: Hebrew])


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Eliyahu, posted 08-04-2013 7:19 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

    
Archangel
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 276 of 304 (704156)
08-05-2013 10:48 AM


To you unbelievers and naysayers:
You might be wondering why I havent responded to or debated any of the tired old denials or objections you have spewed throughout this thread. The reason for that is because the truth of Gods word needs no defense. I posted actual prophecies and the evidence that they were all fulfilled by JESUS CHRIST the MESSIAH of every human being who has ever lived. That is an undeniable fact that exists whether anyone accepts it or not.

I marvel that an ancient book like the bible that by all accounts and the scrutiny it has survived is still excoriated as a book of myths by so many people who actually claim they are the intellectuals in this debate when they are in fact the deniers of fact who prefer to accept the fantastic and unprovable fictional claims espoused by the evolution believers who are so ignorant as to actually believe that all of the unique and varied lifeforms on this planet came about by chance.

I mean, we humans who are the most advanced lifeforms on Earth, the most sophisticated creatures with the power to reason, learn and advance complex ideas into life changing working machines that benefit us in the most amazing ways. And yet even though evolution claims it takes millions of years for lower creatures to evolve higher functions and sophisticated capabilities, by all accounts according to the bogus theory of evolution, human beings didnt arrive on the scene until between 100,000 years ago and 40,000 years ago, respectively, depending which debate the evolutionist is having at the time.

Thats another issue that is infuriating about the evolutionist, your facts change and are rearranged as often as the weather in order to defend the lies represented in this bogus and false philosophy. The excuses you make in order to defend a defenseless cult which evolution is, causes you to deny facts and defend lies and manufactured evidence.

For example, you make outrageous excuses to explain how soft tissue survived 70 million years in the thigh bone of a T-Rex as shown here in a Nat Geo link. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web...

I submit that it is incredible and outrageous that allegedly intelligent people believe that fossils can survive 70 million years without being ground into dust by the active earth when we see today that any creature of any size that dies in the wild is consumed COMPLETELY by the elements and other wildlife within weeks of perishing. It is possible and believable that these so called prehistoric fossils have survived 5,000 years or even 10,000 years; but 70 million? Only a fool would believe that is possible.

You remind me of children who believe in fairy tales yet you scoff, judge and malign we who accept the ancient history that the bible reveals to us. I may respond again as I have more to say about this subject but other things I must do now. Be at peace and seek the truth as that truth will set you free.


  
Archangel
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 277 of 304 (704192)
08-05-2013 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Eliyahu
08-04-2013 7:19 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out
quote:
Bs'd
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.
But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?
Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.
Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?
But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".

BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:

Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."

But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".

No trinity.

Another example of a pronoun:

Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.

As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.

Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.

So no three persons in God.

Another one:

Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Clear what? It doesn't say: This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.

No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.

Another one:

Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;

Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.

I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.

And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.

.

.

In the service of Y-H-W-H,

Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5


Your post is very interesting Ellyahu in that it reveals the misunderstanding many jews have regarding the Trinity/3 in one. You see, just as G-D is 3 in one so are we who are made in His image yet we dont refer to ourselves in the plural, do we? So neither does our Creator who made us in His image. But rest assured that Y-H-W-H is a Trinity just as we are.

The trinity of G-D is one of the great mysteries that we with our finite minds struggle with but just as the bible is G-Ds word, we accept these things on faith because our creator is trustworthy and reliable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Eliyahu, posted 08-04-2013 7:19 AM Eliyahu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ramoss, posted 08-05-2013 10:45 PM Archangel has not yet responded
 Message 279 by Eliyahu, posted 08-06-2013 12:22 AM Archangel has responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 278 of 304 (704205)
08-05-2013 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Archangel
08-05-2013 4:44 PM


Re: The truth must and will come out
The trinity is called a 'mystery ' because it is an ad hock explaination to retrofit the concept of "Jesus being God' into Jewish Monotheism It is given a term to hide the fact that it totally and utterly does not make sense.
.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Archangel, posted 08-05-2013 4:44 PM Archangel has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by kofh2u, posted 08-06-2013 8:07 PM ramoss has not yet responded

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 279 of 304 (704206)
08-06-2013 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Archangel
08-05-2013 4:44 PM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
Your post is very interesting Ellyahu in that it reveals the misunderstanding many jews have regarding the Trinity/3 in one. You see, just as G-D is 3 in one so are we who are made in His image yet we dont refer to ourselves in the plural, do we? So neither does our Creator who made us in His image. But rest assured that Y-H-W-H is a Trinity just as we are.

The trinity of G-D is one of the great mysteries that we with our finite minds struggle with but just as the bible is G-Ds word, we accept these things on faith because our creator is trustworthy and reliable.

Bs'd

Why accept a "mystery" on faith? As the rabbi's say: "When they say "mystery", they mean "idolatry"."

The Bible teaches that God is one.

The Bible nowhwere teaches that God is three or three in one.

One is not the same as three or three in one.

Therefore, God is not a trinity.


שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד


Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is
ONE.

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Archangel, posted 08-05-2013 4:44 PM Archangel has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Eliyahu has responded

    
Archangel
Member (Idle past 934 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 280 of 304 (704211)
08-06-2013 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Eliyahu
08-06-2013 12:22 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
Elliyahu, you are very good at finding the passages that point to God being one in order to show that there is only "one" G-D. He therefore never wanted to imply or infer the concept of multiple G-Ds in any way so He is very clear that He alone is the G-D of Israel. But that doesnt mean the trinity or the concept of the 3 in 1 is never dealt with or implied in the Old Testament. And I realize that the only evidence you might accept must come ONLY from the OT or the Septuagint. Here, the Blue Letter Bible says it much better than I could.

There Is A Plural Noun Used With A Singular Verb
A hint of the doctrine of the Trinity can be found in the first verse of the Bible.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim is a plural noun but it is used here with a singular verb bara. In the remainder of the Old Testament, when Elohim speaks of the true God, it is always used with a singular verb. The conclusion to be drawn is that in some sense God is both singular and plural. The doctrine of the Trinity states this within the nature of the one God there are three eternal persons.

God Says "Let Us"
We find a further hint of the Trinity in Genesis 1.

Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth" (Genesis 1:26).

The phrase "let us" again gives the idea of plurality. The word "us" cannot refer to angels because angels do not create.

Therefore, in the first chapter of the Bible we have a hint of the Trinity with the plural title Elohim used with a singular verb and God speaking and saying, "Let us."

More References To God Being Referred To As "Us"
The words "let us" is used elsewhere of God speaking in Genesis. After Adam and Eve sinned the Bible records.

Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever (Genesis 3:22).

At the incident at the Tower of Babel we read God saying.

Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech (Genesis 11:7).

Isaiah the prophet recorded God saying.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me" (Isaiah 6:8).

Another Plural Name For God - Maker
There is another instance in the Isaiah where there is a second plural name for God.

For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called (Isaiah 54:5).

The word translated, "Maker" is plural in Hebrew. Therefore we have a second Hebrew word that is plural that is used of God.

The Clearest Old Testament Statement
There is one statement in the Old Testament that gives a fairly clear indication of the Trinity.

Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Isaiah 48:16,17).

In verse sixteen, God the Son is speaking. He identifies the Father [the Sovereign Lord] and His Spirit as having sent Him. In the next verse, the Son is clearly spoken of as the Lord. Consequently these verses identify three distinct Persons who are God without denying the fact there is only one God.

There Is A Distinction Between The Lord In Heaven And The One On Earth
The Old Testament also makes a distinction between the Lord who is in heaven and the one on earth.

Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the LORD out of the heavens. Thus He overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities - and also the vegetation in the land (Genesis 19:24).

Each Member Is Specifically Mentioned In The Old Testament
In addition, each member of the Trinity is mentioned in the Old Testament.

God The Father
There are Old Testament passages that refer to God the Father.

For you are our father, though Abraham does not know us and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O LORD, are our father; our Redeemer from of old is your name (Isaiah 63:16).

Malachi wrote.

Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our ancestors? (Malachi 2:10).

The Son Is Found In The Old Testament
The Son finds mention in the Old Testament. The Psalmist wrote.

Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions (Psalm 45:6,7).

In the Second Psalm we read.

I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill. I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you (Psalm 2:6,7)

Later, in that same Psalm, it says.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in him (Psalm 2:12)

In the Book of Proverbs it says.

Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know! (Proverbs 30:4).

The Messiah Has Divine Titles
God's Son, the Messiah is described with divine titles.

"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David Or up from David's line} a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land" (Jeremiah 23:5,6).

Isaiah wrote.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6).

The Angel Of The Lord
The Angel of the Lord has the power to forgive sins

"See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him (Exodus 23:20,21).

The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit, or the "Spirit of the Lord," is also mentioned in the Old Testament. In the Book of Genesis we read.

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters (Genesis 1:2).

Isaiah recorded the following.

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him - the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD - and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears (Isaiah 11:2,3).

Isaiah also wrote.

The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners (Isaiah 61:1).

Later Isaiah wrote.

Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them (Isaiah 63:10).

The Spirit of God is distinguished from the Lord in the account leading up to the Flood.

Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years" (Genesis 6:3)

The Trinity Is Foreshadowed In Benedictions
The Trinity is also foreshadowed in the triple benediction of Numbers 6:24-27.

The LORD bless you and keep you; the LORD make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD turn his face toward you and give you peace. So they will put my name on the Israelites, and I will bless them.

The doxology of Isaiah 6:3 also gives hint of the Trinity.

And they were calling to one another: Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory (Isaiah 6:3).

Jacob Blessed Joseph Three Times

When Jacob blessed his son Joseph, he used the name of God three times. Each time God's name was identified differently.

Then he blessed Joseph and said, "May the God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm may he bless these boys. May they be called by my name and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac, and may they increase greatly upon the earth (Genesis 48:15,16).

While this is not conclusive, the triple benedictions are consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.

Why Is There Not More Said?
If the doctrine of the Trinity is true, then why don't we find more explicit references in the Old Testament? Part of the answer may lie in the culture in which the Old Testament was written. Israel was surrounded by nations who were all polytheistic they believed in many gods. It was important for Israel to realize that the God of the Bible is the only God who existed. Consequently the oneness of God was stressed. After this truth was firmly understood by Israel then the Lord revealed further truth about His basic nature that He is a Trinity.

Summary
Although the Trinity is not explicitly taught in the Old Testament, the basis of this doctrine is certainly found there. First there is the use of the plural noun for God Elohim that is used with a singular verb. This gives a hint of the Trinity. The Hebrew word for Maker, which describes God, is also in the plural.

There are also passages where God speaks of himself with the words, "Let us." This is another possible reference to the Trinity.

There are also specific passages where the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are mentioned. Add to this passages that foreshadow the Trinity with the triple benediction. These passages, however, do not reveal the doctrine of the Trinity. This was left for the New Testament to accomplish. The Old Testament does not have a developed doctrine of the Trinity. However truths about the Trinity are foreshadowed in the Old Testament.


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 Message 279 by Eliyahu, posted 08-06-2013 12:22 AM Eliyahu has responded

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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 7.7


Message 281 of 304 (704215)
08-06-2013 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Archangel
08-06-2013 4:46 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
Often, people use their misunderstanding now Hebrew works to try to shove the trinity into the old testament. Let's take a look , at for example, the word "Elohim' which means lord. This shows 'plural' with the 'im', but it is most often used not as a plural, but a magnification. IF the following verb is in singular form, then Elohim is singular, but the importance magnified That can be shown in Exodus, when Moses become an 'Elohim' over Aaron. It doesn't mean there were three people named Moses.. but rather Moses was magnified in importance (sort of like the royal WE.

It has nothing to do with the 'Trinity' at all. That is just plain silly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Archangel has not yet responded

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 282 of 304 (704218)
08-06-2013 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
04-15-2012 12:18 AM


There are no 100 and no 300 messianic prophecies. Doesn't exist.
Bs'd

The simple facts are: There are no 100 and no 300 messianic prophecies. Doesn't exist.

JC obviously did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies.

So what the Christians do, is ripping random Tanach texts out of context, texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".

Examples how the NT does that can be seen here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/nt-prophecies

Examples how the Christians do that, can be found here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/324x0

But this is of course lying and cheating.

When you treat the text like that, then you can turn anybody you want into the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:

A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery

My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.

1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)

2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)

3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)

4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)

5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)

6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)

7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)

9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)

11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)

12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)

13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)

14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)

16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)

17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)

18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)

19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)

20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)

21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)

22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)

23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)

24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)

25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)

26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)

27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)

28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)

30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)

31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)

32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)

33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)

34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)

35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)

36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)

37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)

39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).

42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)

There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.

In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'

* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'

(c) Moshe Shulman, 2000

.

.

In the service of Y-H-W-H,

Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 04-15-2012 12:18 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 3:53 PM Eliyahu has responded
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 283 of 304 (704219)
08-06-2013 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Archangel
08-06-2013 4:46 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
Bs'd

Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.
But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?
Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.
Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?
But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".

BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:

Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."

But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".

No trinity.

Another example of a pronoun:

Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.

As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.

Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.

So no three persons in God.

Another one:

Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Clear what? It doesn't say: This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.

No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.

Another one:

Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;

Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.

I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.

And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.

.

.

In the service of Y-H-W-H,

Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Archangel has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 284 of 304 (704221)
08-06-2013 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Archangel
08-06-2013 4:46 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
Elliyahu, you are very good at finding the passages that point to God being one in order to show that there is only "one" G-D

Bs'd

You really don't get it huh?

I bring the passages that God is ONE not in order to show that there is one God, but in order to show that GOD IS ONE!!!

Can you understand the difference between "one God" and "God is one"?

.

.

In the service of Y-H-W-H,

Eliyahu, light unto the nations

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5

.

.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Archangel has not yet responded

    
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 285 of 304 (704222)
08-06-2013 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Archangel
08-06-2013 4:46 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
There Is A Plural Noun Used With A Singular Verb
A hint of the doctrine of the Trinity can be found in the first verse of the Bible.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).

The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim is a plural noun but it is used here with a singular verb bara. In the remainder of the Old Testament, when Elohim speaks of the true God, it is always used with a singular verb. The conclusion to be drawn is that in some sense God is both singular and plural. The doctrine of the Trinity states this within the nature of the one God there are three eternal persons.

Bs'd

The word "elohiem" is always singular, unless the context clearly shows it to be plural.

Here is a Christian file on the word "elohiem":

Elohim and Echad
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/elohim.html
A typical example of the many word games Trinitarians and others use as they endeavor to promote their false god.
Adapted from The Journal of Hebraic Renewal, which reprinted it from Focus on the Kingdom magazine.

To support the commonly held teaching that God is a plural entity consisting of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit [1], Messianics that follow the primary Traditional Christian doctrines from which they came, as well as Traditional Christians, themselves, will appeal to two Hebrew words: Elohim (eloheem) and echad (echad, "ch" as in the Scottish "loch"). They assert that the Hebrew word, Elohim, indicates that God is a plural entity because it is the plural form of the word for God and is the title most often used for the God of Israel. Echad - used in the well-known "shema" of Deuteronomy 6:4 instructing Israel that their God is "one" - is asserted by them to show the plurality of God because, they say echad in the Hebrew actually indicates a compound, rather than an absolute, unity; that is, rather than a "simple" one, they say echad indicates a unity of more than one.

Each claim will now be examined.
Elohim

Elohim is the plural form of Eloah and appears closely related to El, which usually means "god", "God", or "mighty one". But IF we were right to translate Elohim as a plural word, the Bible would teach us that in the beginning, "Gods" created the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Bible would then support the idea that more than one God created the universe, spoke to Abraham, delivered Israel from bondage and continued dealing with them, etc., since Elohim is used throughout the Tanakh ("Old" Testament) as Israel's God(s). But virtually no Christian - Messianic or otherwise - would profess that there is more than one God.

So, how do we resolve this dilemma? And why do all the translations translate Elohim simply as "God" and not "Gods" when it refers to the true God?

In Biblical Hebrew, a noun that is plural in form is not necessarily plural in meaning - a fact most Messianic leaders realize, yet seem to ignore. For instance, the Hebrew words chayim (chayeem, "life") [2] and panim (paneem, "face", "presence", "countenance") [3] are plural in form, but almost always singular in meaning. Another word, adon, "lord", "master", [4] is often plural in form. In its plural form it is sometimes used of a single person - Abraham (Gen. 24:9-10), Joseph (Gen. 42:30,33), the king of Egypt (Gen. 40:1) and an anonymous "fierce king" under whose rule the Egyptians were prophesied to come (Isa. 19:4, NRSV). There are instances of other plural Hebrew words employed in the Hebrew Bible with singular meaning.

Equally striking is the fact that the same term, elohim, is used of the individual false gods of Israel's surrounding nations. Elohim is used of Dagon, the god of the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:7); of Chemosh, the god of Ammon and Moab (Jud. 11:24; 1 Kings 11:33); of Ashtarte (or Ashtoreth), the god(dess) of the Sidonians (1 Kings 11:33); of Milcom, another god of the Ammorites (1 Kings 11:33). In Smith's Bible Dictionary (NISBE) no plurality in any one of these gods is even hinted at. Additionally, in Ezra's prayer in Nehemiah 9:18, elohim is used to refer to the single golden calf made by Israel in the wilderness.

Elohim is also used of single human figures. Moses in both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 and the Messianic king in Psalms 45:6 (verse 7 in the Hebrew Bible) are each referred to as elohim [5].

What all this indicates is that in Biblical Hebrew, plural nouns in general and Elohim in particular do not always have plural meanings. In the case of the word Elohim, in fact, it would appear as though we should almost always understand it as singular in meaning unless the context indicates that "gods" are referred to.

Hebrew scholars are entirely familiar with these facts (as are Christianized Messianic leaders). The expressions "plural of majesty" or "plural of rank" or "intensive plural" are sometimes used to describe this phenomenon of language (not just Hebrew) where the form of a word can be plural but its meaning is singular. The idea is that the plural stresses or exalts the importance of the person referred to. The following is a quotation regarding Elohim from the NISBE, in their article on "God, Names of":

The use of the plural form with singular meaning is not unique to Israel. Similar forms occur in pre-Israelite Babylonian and Canaanite texts in which a worshiper wishes to exalt a particular god above others. This form has been called the plural of majesty or the intensive plural because it implies that all the fullness of deity is concentrated in the one god. Elohim's being the most common word for God in the Tanakh thus conveys this idea. (Vol. 2, p. 505).

Smith's Bible Dictionary has this to say on the same subject in their article entitled "God":

The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God (p. 220).

But by no means is YHWH ever referred to by plural forms. In fact, whenever the people of God speak of Him in the Hebrew Bible using a pronoun, they ALWAYS employ the singular form. Whether it is the third person (He, Him, His) or the second person (You, Your, Thou, Thy) this is the case. The people of God understood their God to be a single Individual. [6]

Nor is He only referred to in the plural when "God" is the translated word. Two forms referred to above, El and Eloah used in the Tanakh to refer to the true God, are both singular in form. [7] When an Aramaic word for God, Elah, is used, it too appears to be always in its singular form when referring to the true God. [8]

The form of the verb used in Hebrew when Elohim the true God is the subject is also instructive. It is virtually always singular in form throughout the Tanakh. In Genesis 1, for example - where the reader is first introduced to Elohim the Creator - the Hebrew verb form is always in the third masculine singular whenever [9] we read that "Elohim created" or "Elohim said" or "Elohim made", etc. [10]

Finally, the Septuagint (known as "LXX"), the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (probably translated in the third and second century B.C.E.) ALWAYS translated the Hebrew word for God in the singular (Gr. theos). The LXX version of the Old Testament is often cited in the New Testament instead of the Hebrew. [11]

Therefore - returning to the original argument (which usually includes the "Let us..." statement in Gen. 1:26) - if God must be regarded as a plural entity because He is referred to in a plural form, why then must He not be regarded as a singular entity since He is referred to in singular forms? Are not all these statements Holy Scripture? We could be left with a contradiction were it not for the many examples of plural forms with singular meanings in Hebrew, including the concept of "plural of majesty". The plural of majesty clarifies the usage of the plural form for the true God in the Tanakh. He is described by thousands and thousands of singular verbs and pronouns. Language has no more definite way of telling us that God is ONE Person, the Father of Yeshua - but definitely NOT Yeshua!

As a final proof, note the Messianic 22nd Psalm. I will quote from only a portion of this Psalm which, when read using common sense, CLEARLY shows that Yeshua (the prophetic focus of this Psalm) refers to God (Elohim and El) as HIS God (Elohim). I will include in parenthesis the Hebrew word translated as "God."

Psalm 22:1,2,10
1 My God (El), my God (El), why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God (Elohim), I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. ... 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God (El) from my mother's belly.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

This single quote from Psalms - and there are other Messianic verses which present the same proof - PROVES that Yeshua is NOT God (Elohim), since he (Yeshua) refers to the ONE, True God as HIS Elohim! Verse 10 also proves how Yeshua worshipped the same God we should worship from his birth! Thus, since Yeshua very clearly referred to the God HE WORSHIPPED as Elohim, the term Elohim cannot possibly refer to Yeshua in the sense of making him God!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Archangel has not yet responded

    
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