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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 716 (703893)
07-30-2013 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
07-30-2013 12:18 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
What do your creeds say about this....seems as if it has happened....
Yes, Christ was resurrected and holds the keys. But did Jesus actually say this stuff to John? Because that, and not the resurrection itself, is the event described in Revelations.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 07-30-2013 12:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 716 (703896)
07-30-2013 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
07-30-2013 12:13 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
If you look at the requirements of being THE Messiah found in the Old Testament, Jesus is not The Messiah.
The significance of Jesus is his life and the example he gave us.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 07-30-2013 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by kofh2u, posted 08-02-2013 4:41 PM jar has not replied
 Message 117 by kofh2u, posted 08-02-2013 4:49 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 716 (703897)
07-30-2013 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
07-30-2013 12:18 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
No, the creeds do not address anything in Revelation. There is no mention that I am aware of in any of the creeds about someone falling at Jesus feet as though dead.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 07-30-2013 12:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 94 of 716 (703935)
07-31-2013 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by NoNukes
07-29-2013 11:44 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
I don't see that you've proven or even attempted to demonstrate anything like that. It has been argued that that there are "prophecies" that Jesus did not fulfill.
Bs'd
That is not a matter of "arguing", that's a simple fact.
Everybody with half a brain sees that those messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by JC.
It has been further argued that calling those things prophecies may well be unjustified in the first place.
No normal Christian will deny that those prophecies are messianic prophecies.
While those arguments might well be enough to explain why Jesus was not what the Jews were expecting, those arguments do not show that Jesus was not divine.
What those prophecies show. is that those prophecies are NOT fuflilled by JC, and that therefore he was not the messiah.
And about him being divine: No human being is divine. Only God is divine.
The one and only God Y-H-W-H who is ONE.
Ask yourself this. If Jesus was the Jewish messiah, would he then be acceptable for worship? If the answer is no, and I believe the answer is no, then you are making a bad argument.
The answer is: NO.
ONLY God may be worshipped.
Worshipping anything or anybody else then the one and only God Y-H-W-H is IDOLATRY.
Plain and simply
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 07-29-2013 11:44 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2013 2:58 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 716 (703991)
08-01-2013 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Eliyahu
07-31-2013 2:49 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
No normal Christian will deny that those prophecies are messianic prophecies.
Some will and some won't.
What those prophecies show. is that those prophecies are NOT fuflilled by JC, and that therefore he was not the messiah.
They are not prophecies about Jesus and so far they are not prophecies about anyone else either.
and about him being divine: No human being is divine. Only God is divine.
So you assert. But you haven't produced a shred of evidence or even argument about that. You haven't even produce an argument that not being the messiah as you define it is even relevant.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Eliyahu, posted 07-31-2013 2:49 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 12:25 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 97 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 12:39 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 96 of 716 (704010)
08-02-2013 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by NoNukes
08-01-2013 2:58 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
No normal Christian will deny that those prophecies are messianic prophecies.
Some will and some won't.
Bs'd
99% will admit that what I show are messianic prophecies, and of those 99% a 100% will admit they are NOT fulfilled by JC:
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
What those prophecies show. is that those prophecies are NOT fuflilled by JC, and that therefore he was not the messiah.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2013 2:58 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 12:53 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 97 of 716 (704012)
08-02-2013 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by NoNukes
08-01-2013 2:58 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
They are not prophecies about Jesus and so far they are not prophecies about anyone else either.
Bs'd
They are messianic prophecies, and they are not about JC.
Therefore, JC was NOT the messiah.
and about him being divine: No human being is divine. Only God is divine.
So you assert. But you haven't produced a shred of evidence or even argument about that. You haven't even produce an argument that not being the messiah as you define it is even relevant.
Well, since JC claimed to be the messiah, therefore it is very relevant whether he was the messiah or not.
And about only God being divine, here is some Scriptural evidence about that one:
Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".
But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.
Exodus 29:46 They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.
Numbers 15:41 I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.
Deuteronomy 10:20-21 Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.
Joshua 24:18 We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.
II Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?
I Chronicles 16:14 He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth
II Chronicles 13:10 As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him
Psalm 31:14 But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.
Psalm 89:6 For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?
Psalm 91:2 I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.
Psalm 100:3 Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.
Psalm 105:7 He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;
Psalm 118:27 Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.
Psalm 140:6 O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God
Isaiah 25:1 O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.
Isaiah 41:13 For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;
Isaiah 43:3 For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
Isaiah 51:15 For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name
Jeremiah 3:22-23 Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God
Jeremiah 10:10 But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;
Jeremiah 31:18 Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.
Habakkuk 1:12 O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.
.
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And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?
.
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Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.
Deuteronomy 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.
II Samuel 7:22 How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
I Kings 8:60 so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.
I Chronicles 17:20 There is no one like you, O Y-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
II Chronicles 6:14 O Y-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.
Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.
Isaiah 45:21-23 You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 45:5-6 I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."
Isaiah 45:21-23 Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;
Exodus 20:1-3 And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by NoNukes, posted 08-01-2013 2:58 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 08-02-2013 5:56 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 716 (704013)
08-02-2013 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Eliyahu
08-02-2013 12:25 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
You miss the point. I suspect that you are simply dismissing the point in pursuit of some agenda that really isn't relevant to the OP.
Jesus did not do what was described above. But I ask, so what? Isn't it only a person who is counting on those words to be literal and fulfilled who ought to be the slightest bit bothered?
That prophecy is irrelevant to the question of whether Jesus is Lord. I don't see any reason to make an attempt to shoehorn Jesus ministry into also being the slaughterer of Jewish enemies.
If this "prophecy" turns out to be utterly wrong, and the messiah never comes, then it is not prophecy at all, is it?
This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah.
A rationalization that I find totally unnecessary. Jesus failure to be a military leader 2000 years ago is no failure at all in my eyes. It is akin to me noting that Usain Bolt wasn't a great miler. Is that some kind of failure?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 12:25 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 1:08 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 1:22 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 99 of 716 (704015)
08-02-2013 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 12:53 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
You miss the point. I suspect that you are simply dismissing the point in pursuit of some agenda that really isn't relevant to the OP.
Jesus did not do what was described above. But I ask, so what? Isn't it only a person who is counting on those words to be literal and fulfilled who ought to be the slightest bit bothered?
That prophecy is irrelevant to the question of whether Jesus is Lord.
Bs'd
What do you mean with "JC is Lord"?
I don't see any reason to make an attempt to shoehorn Jesus ministry into also being the slaughterer of Jewish enemies.
This is the reason that he should fulfill those prophecies:
JC claimed to be the fulfillment of the Tanach prophecies:
Matthew 5:17; "Think not that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."
Luke 4:16-21; "And there was delivered to him the book of the prophet Esaias . and he began to say unto them: This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears."
So since JC claimed to come to fulfill the Tanach prophecies, and since he claimed to be the messiah, therefore he should have fulfilled the messianic prophecies.
If this "prophecy" turns out to be utterly wrong, and the messiah never comes, then it is not prophecy at all, is it?
No. But if you believe that the Tanach prophets were false prophets, then you might as well throw your Bible overboard. That is including the NT which is based on the Tanach.
This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah.
A rationalization that I find totally unnecessary. Jesus failure to be a military leader 2000 years ago is no failure at all in my eyes. It is akin to me noting that Usain Bolt wasn't a great miler. Is that some kind of failure?
JC claimed to be the messiah, therefore he should have fulfilled the messianic prophecies.
It really is that simple.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 12:53 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 100 of 716 (704016)
08-02-2013 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 12:53 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
A couple of points NoNukes.
First, Eliahyu is arguing from a Jewish perspective - assuming the truth of the Judaic religion. From that point of view the question of how Jesus fits into the views of Judaism is vitally important.
Also we must not forget that Christianity is founded on the premise that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah (it's even in the name "Christianity") and more, and that the Jewish scriptures show that this is true. If the claims of Christians for Jesus are false from his perspective then that is enough for him. And it should be enough for even non-Jews to consider the claims of Christianity thoroughly suspect.
Finally I must say that it seems odd to deny that Jesus was a failure. It seems to me that he set out to prove himself the Messiah - and establish a free Jewish kingdom in the lifetime of his followers. Yet he managed no more than a brief faddish popularity (exaggerated in the Gospels) before being caught and executed by the Romans. That would seem to be something of a failure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 12:53 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 3:12 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 104 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 4:57 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 101 of 716 (704020)
08-02-2013 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by PaulK
08-02-2013 1:22 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Also we must not forget that Christianity is founded on the premise that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah (it's even in the name "Christianity") and more, and that the Jewish scriptures show that this is true. If the claims of Christians for Jesus are false from his perspective then that is enough for him. And it should be enough for even non-Jews to consider the claims of Christianity thoroughly suspect.
Being a Jew doesn't make them right, to put it mildly. The fact is that the Jews who rejected Jesus then and reject Him now do not understand their own scriptures. Orthodox Jews today are the same as the Pharisees in Jesus' time who were always being upbraided by Him for their man-made teachings and twisting of the scriptures. They continue today with exactly the same false teachings. They still strain gnats out of their soup and swallow camels.
The Jews who did believe were also slow to get it because of the false teachings of the Pharisees, as Jesus was continually showing them. A few got it right away, such as the old man (Simon?) and Anna who were always in the temple, and those Bereans who studied the scriptures carefully to see if the claims were true and concluded they were. Paul had it all wrong because of his having been steeped in the teachings of the Pharisees, but after being waylaid by the risen Christ he became the firebrand for the truth we all follow now.
Finally I must say that it seems odd to deny that Jesus was a failure. It seems to me that he set out to prove himself the Messiah - and establish a free Jewish kingdom in the lifetime of his followers.
And how much of the NT do you have to rewrite to come to that absurd conclusion? What evidence could you possibly have for such a claim? He chose twelve lowly men to be his disciples, fishermen and others, men who were not soldiers; He went around teaching and healing and doing miracles rather than gathering an army; He told them He was going to die and then He took it completely passively when the time came. Where in any of the accounts of His life is there the slightest hint that He had the worldly politico-military aim you ascribe to Him? Right, in the "gospel according to PaulK of course." It doesn't exist in the Bible.
Yet he managed no more than a brief faddish popularity (exaggerated in the Gospels) before being caught and executed by the Romans. That would seem to be something of a failure.
Brief? Still going after 2000 years? Popularity? According to the NT, only with some, and it quickly evaporated. They hosanna'd Him when He entered Jerusalem on the donkey, which was His declaration of His Messiahship. His Kingship, but then they all rejected Him before Pilate and chose Barabbas instead.
But the Gospel According to Paul K is of course superior to the Bible itself and the testimony of 2000 years and millions upon millions of believers, true believers who are willing, even today, to die for the truth we find in the Bible.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 1:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 4:01 AM Faith has replied
 Message 103 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 4:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 102 of 716 (704021)
08-02-2013 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
08-02-2013 3:12 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
quote:
Being a Jew doesn't make them right, to put it mildly.
But it DOES mean that he is coming at it from a Jewish perspective and responses to him need to take that into account. That's the point I was making.
quote:
And how much of the NT do you have to rewrite to come to that absurd conclusion?
None of it, of course. Taking a critical view of the Gospels, and taking into account the lack of impact that Jesus had outside Christianity is not in any sense rewriting. It's simply taking more of a historian's perspective.
quote:
Brief?
Absolutely. Jesus is at most a footnote in Josephus and no other non-Christian sources from anywhere close to the time think that he amounted to much.
quote:
But the Gospel According to Paul K is of course superior to the Bible itself and the testimony of 2000 years and millions upon millions of believers, true believers who are willing, even today, to die for the truth we find in the Bible.
The truth is more important than your pride. Too bad that you can't see that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 3:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 5:49 AM PaulK has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2261 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 103 of 716 (704022)
08-02-2013 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
08-02-2013 3:12 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Being a Jew doesn't make them right, to put it mildly. The fact is that the Jews who rejected Jesus then and reject Him now do not understand their own scriptures. Orthodox Jews today are the same as the Pharisees in Jesus' time who were always being upbraided by Him for their man-made teachings and twisting of the scriptures. They continue today with exactly the same false teachings. They still strain gnats out of their soup and swallow camels.
Bs'd
Please explain which camels are being swallowed by the Jews.
Finally I must say that it seems odd to deny that Jesus was a failure. It seems to me that he set out to prove himself the Messiah - and establish a free Jewish kingdom in the lifetime of his followers.
And how much of the NT do you have to rewrite to come to that absurd conclusion? What evidence could you possibly have for such a claim? He chose twelve lowly men to be his disciples, fishermen and others, men who were not soldiers; He went around teaching and healing and doing miracles rather than gathering an army; He told them He was going to die and then He took it completely passively when the time came. Where in any of the accounts of His life is there the slightest hint that He had the worldly politico-military aim you ascribe to Him? Right, in the "gospel according to PaulK of course." It doesn't exist in the Bible
As we all know by now, JC failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies.
And not only that, he also failed to fuflill his own prophecies, that he would be back very soon, within one generation, to establish his kingdom, and judge the whole world:
In Matthew 4:17 he claims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand..
Now, almost 2000 years later, the kingdom is still not here.
This claim of Jesus to return soon in order to judge the whole world is all over the New Testament. Look for instance in Revelations 1:1-3, idem 3:11, idem 22:6, 10-12, 20. Everywhere here is spoken about a soon return and the early Christian communities were expecting the return of Christ in their lifetimes, as we can read in I Corinthians 7:29, Romans 13:11-12, and I Peter 4:7. Their belief in a return of Christ in their lifetimes was based upon very clear, not to be misunderstood statements of Jesus. Look for an impressive prophesy in Mark 13:24-30: "The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven .. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done." See also Matthew 24:29-35 and Luke 21;25-33. .
This generation passed away almost 2000 years ago, and no one has seen him coming back on the clouds to establish his kingdom of peace and gather in his elected Christians.
In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1
Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works?... But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom!...Are they still around today?....Even Methuselah didn't live that long!
From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet. What does the Holy Torah that the only eternal G.d gave to the Jewish people say about this?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."
Here G.d commands the Jewish people to execute false prophets, who are prophets whose prophecies do not come true. Jesus is a perfect example of a prophet whose prophecy did not come true. See also the prophecy concerning the three days and three nights that did not come true.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 3:12 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 716 (704023)
08-02-2013 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by PaulK
08-02-2013 1:22 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
First, Eliahyu is arguing from a Jewish perspective - assuming the truth of the Judaic religion. From that point of view the question of how Jesus fits into the views of Judaism is vitally important.
I believe I've acknowledged that part of Eliahyu's position, while dismissing it as a major concern for me. Eliahyu thinks my dismissal is nonsense, but makes no substantial argument for it other than to quote even more unfulfilled scripture.
Also we must not forget that Christianity is founded on the premise that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah
Christianity was founded among Jews, but has grown considerably beyond that. Christianity, at least for gentiles, does not absolutely require all Christ to be a military leader. And even if Jesus is not the Jewish military leader, the story according to the Gospels is that he was acknowledged directly by God as his Son, performed miracles etc.
inally I must say that it seems odd to deny that Jesus was a failure. It seems to me that he set out to prove himself the Messiah - and establish a free Jewish kingdom in the lifetime of his followers.
Show me support for the proposition that Jesus tried to establish an earthly kingdom in his time, and I'll agree that you have made a substantial argument.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 1:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 9:45 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 105 of 716 (704024)
08-02-2013 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by PaulK
08-02-2013 4:01 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Being a Jew doesn't make them right, to put it mildly.
But it DOES mean that he is coming at it from a Jewish perspective and responses to him need to take that into account. That's the point I was making.
THAT point I agree with. Some who are responding to Eliyahu are clearly completely ignorant of what Orthodox Jews believe and keep raising questions that are completely irrelevant to him.
HOWEVER, you also said that since Eliyahu regards the claims for Jesus to be false that "even non-Jews" should regard those claims to be "thoroughly suspect." That is what I was answering. Eliyahu represents today's Pharisees, the descendants of the very men Jesus was constantly condemning for their misreading of scripture.
And how much of the NT do you have to rewrite to come to that absurd conclusion?
None of it, of course.
No, as I showed you'd have to rewrite pretty much the entire NT because there what we have is Jesus doing not one single thing to suggest He intended to fulfill the worldly aims of the Jews as a conquering hero, quite the opposite, as I pointed out, also we have the Jewish leaders being denounced by Jesus as wrong wrong wrong.
Taking a critical view of the Gospels, and taking into account the lack of impact that Jesus had outside Christianity ...
Your "critical view" must ignore just about all of it, but the idea of Jesus' "lack of impact" has my jaw on the floor. Especially the phrase "outside Christianity." Now THAT's classic. THAT is enough to make a camel swallow a Pharisee. Or something like that.
Jesus' impact for starters converted some 30,000 Jews according to some figuring I did quite a while back based on the Book of Acts, then spread out all over the Middle East and Mediterranean world, establishing churches wherever it went, the majority out of the synagogues and therefore Jewish at least at first, then up through tribe after tribe of Europeans as well. Christianity displaced former religions as the gospel spread, it made inroads into the nonChristian world, making much of it Christian which hadn't been before. "Lack of impact?" "Outside Christianity? It ATE UP the nonChristian world of the first few centuries. "Lack of impact?" It "turned the world upside down" as many historians have said.
... is not in any sense rewriting. It's simply taking more of a historian's perspective.
What you are doing is rewriting.
Brief?
Absolutely. Jesus is at most a footnote in Josephus and no other non-Christian sources from anywhere close to the time think that he amounted to much.
Yeah, Christianity made CONVERTS in the millions. The converts wrote tons and tons of stuff. The ones who didn't convert went on in their usual ruts, sometimes, however, acknowledging the impact of Christianity by throwing its followers to the lions and burning them as torches.
But the Gospel According to Paul K is of course superior to the Bible itself and the testimony of 2000 years and millions upon millions of believers, true believers who are willing, even today, to die for the truth we find in the Bible.
The truth is more important than your pride. Too bad that you can't see that.
No doubt because I'm the one with the truth, you the one with the made up crap, and the pride to boot.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 4:01 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 10:10 AM Faith has replied

  
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