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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 716 (704025)
08-02-2013 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Eliyahu
08-02-2013 12:39 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
aside from telling and retelling other people that there is no God besides Y-H-W-H, what is it that you believe your G-d is telling you to do with the life He gave you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 12:39 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 6:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 154 by Eliyahu, posted 01-29-2014 1:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 107 of 716 (704026)
08-02-2013 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
08-02-2013 5:56 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
aside from telling and retelling other people that there is no God besides Y-H-W-H, what is it that you believe your G-d is telling you to do with the life He gave you?
Bs'd
"I, Y-H-W-H, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,"
Isaiah 42:6
"Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil."
Ecclasiastis 12
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 08-02-2013 5:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 108 of 716 (704030)
08-02-2013 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 4:57 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
quote:
I believe I've acknowledged that part of Eliahyu's position, while dismissing it as a major concern for me. Eliahyu thinks my dismissal is nonsense, but makes no substantial argument for it other than to quote even more unfulfilled scripture.
And the reason you say that is because you're NOT adequately taking his position into account. THat scripture, to him IS decisive. It may not be to you, but you'd be better off agreeing to differ rather than arguing at cross-purposes.
quote:
Christianity was founded among Jews, but has grown considerably beyond that. Christianity, at least for gentiles, does not absolutely require all Christ to be a military leader. And even if Jesus is not the Jewish military leader, the story according to the Gospels is that he was acknowledged directly by God as his Son, performed miracles etc.
However, the idea that Jesus is the Messiah is still pervasive in Christianity - do you really think that it should be renamed probably-not-Christ-but-we-don't-care-ianity ? If Jesus isn't the Messiah the rest becomes suspect- or, rather, more suspect.
quote:
Show me support for the proposition that Jesus tried to establish an earthly kingdom in his time, and I'll agree that you have made a substantial argument.
Of course there's very little GOOD evidence about what Jesus did or did not do. To the point where scholars admit that recovering the historical figure is not really possible. However there are certainly indications that way. e.g. the crucifixion indicates that the Romans thought of him as a rebel. Riding on a donkey into Jerusalem makes the identification with the King of Zechariah 9. The use of Daniel in the Olivet discourse suggests that he believed that Daniel's Kingdom of God would arrive soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 4:57 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 10:38 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 109 of 716 (704031)
08-02-2013 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
08-02-2013 5:49 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
quote:
HOWEVER, you also said that since Eliyahu regards the claims for Jesus to be false that "even non-Jews" should regard those claims to be "thoroughly suspect."
Which does not entail arguing that he is right. But I think we can justifiably argue that if a Jewish understanding of the Jewish scriptures points to Jesus not being the messiah at all then there is a real problem with Christian claims that needs to be addressed.
quote:
Eliyahu represents today's Pharisees, the descendants of the very men Jesus was constantly condemning for their misreading of scripture.
Which doesn't make him wrong. For that you'd have to argue the scriptures themselves.
quote:
No, as I showed you'd have to rewrite pretty much the entire NT
because there what we have is Jesus doing not one single thing to suggest He intended to fulfill the worldly aims of the Jews as a conquering hero, quite the opposite, as I pointed out, also we have the Jewish leaders being denounced by Jesus as wrong wrong wrong.
Where did you "show" this ? Because it certainly isn't true that I'd have to rewrite a word of it.
quote:
Your "critical view" must ignore just about all of it,
Again, you're simply wrong here.
quote:
but the idea of Jesus' "lack of impact" has my jaw on the floor.
Reality is often surprising, especially to people like you.
quote:
Jesus' impact for starters converted some 30,000 Jews according to some figuring I did quite a while back based on the Book of Acts
The entire Book of Acts concerns events AFTER Jesus' death. It really doesn't show that he was that successful in life, did it ? There were about 30,000 Mormons at the time of Joseph Smith's death, so timescales are rather important, too. And obviously numbers can be exaggerated.
quote:
Yeah, Christianity made CONVERTS in the millions.
Eventually. And much more due to the efforts of Paul than of Jesus.
quote:
No doubt because I'm the one with the truth, you the one with the made up crap, and the pride to boot.
Keep on living in your topsy-turvy fantasy land.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 5:49 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 10:48 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 11:10 AM PaulK has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 716 (704033)
08-02-2013 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by PaulK
08-02-2013 9:45 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
And the reason you say that is because you're NOT adequately taking his position into account. THat scripture, to him IS decisive.
I think I have acknowledged that too. It seems to be only Eliahyu who thinks his logic ought to be decisive to both of us. I am not trying to convince Eliahyu to adopt my position. I am only trying to point out the holes in his argument.
However there are certainly indications that way. e.g. the crucifixion indicates that the Romans thought of him as a rebel.
Apparently a lot of people at the time did think that Jesus was going to free the Jews from the Romans. But the Gospels pretty much describe the Jews being the ones who were angry about Jesus with the Romans being largely indifferent.
Riding on a donkey into Jerusalem makes the identification with the King of Zechariah 9. The use of Daniel in the Olivet discourse suggests that he believed that Daniel's kingdom of God would arrive soon.
I don't find those arguments very compelling. Perhaps it is start. It is at least an argument.
Of course there's very little GOOD evidence about what Jesus did or did not do.
Right, which why I am surprised that you would attempt this line of argument.
More difficult to answer are questions about why Jesus did not fulfill his own prophecies, but questions about why he did not fulfill some ancient Jewish scripture that may be wishful thinking on the part of an an oppressed people are quite easy for me to dismiss.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 9:45 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 11:04 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 716 (704035)
08-02-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by PaulK
08-02-2013 10:10 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Which does not entail arguing that he is right. But I think we can justifiably argue that if a Jewish understanding of the Jewish scriptures points to Jesus not being the messiah at all then there is a real problem with Christian claims that needs to be addressed.
A problem with what some Christians insist on, yes. But Jesus can be the Son of God without doing a single thing the Jews were, and perhaps still are expecting their messiah to do. And aren't some of those predictions about what the messiah is supposed to accomplished already out of reach anyway? Why isn't that a problem.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 10:10 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 11:08 AM NoNukes has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 112 of 716 (704036)
08-02-2013 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 10:38 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
quote:
I think I have acknowledged that too. It seems to be only Eliahyu who thinks his logic ought to be decisive to both of us. I am not trying to convince Eliahyu to adopt my position. I am only trying to point out the holes in his argument.
But you're missing the hidden assumption that Judaism is correct.
quote:
Apparently a lot of people at the time did think that Jesus was going to free the Jews from the Romans. But the Gospels pretty much describe the Jews being the ones who were angry about Jesus with the Romans being largely indifferent.
That's not entirely true. Prior to Jesus' arrest the Gospels depict Jesus as being at odds with rival religious leaders, but not with the Jewish people in general. And even that depiction is problematic. The scene with Pilate and the Jewish crowd, however, is frankly unbelievable, even in Mark. There's no record of any custom of releasing a prisoner at Passover and Pilate appears to have been an autocrat with no real respect for the Jews - and as for the Jewish crowd ritually taking responsibility... No, just No.
It's pretty clear that the Gospels have a pro-Roman and anti-Jewish bias and with Christianity becoming a Gentile religion trying to exist within the Roman Empire it's entirely likely that the Messianic elements of Jesus' teachings would be watered down. Although, it must be said that the Revelation is still strongly anti-Roman - but even that viewpoint an hardly be help but be influenced by the fact that Jesus did not conquer or rule.
quote:
I don't find those arguments very compelling. Perhaps it is start. It is at least an argument.
But what would you expect given the paucity of evidence, and the vast majority of it reflecting the Christian view of decades after Jesus' death ? As I've already said you will find no compelling arguments either way because the historical Jesus is lost to us.
quote:
More difficult to answer are questions about why Jesus did not fulfill his own prophecies, but questions about why he did not fulfill some ancient Jewish scripture that may be wishful thinking on the part of an an oppressed people are quite easy for me to dismiss.
How about the question of why he would claim to be the fulfilment of those prophecies, if he was not ? Because the prophecies you refer to are those which DEFINE the concept of The Messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 10:38 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 7:44 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 113 of 716 (704037)
08-02-2013 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 10:48 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
quote:
But Jesus can be the Son of God without doing a single thing the Jews were, and perhaps still are expecting their messiah to do
That's a very different question to whether Jesus was The Messiah or not. Really it's off-topic.
quote:
And aren't some of those predictions about what the messiah is supposed to accomplished already out of reach anyway? Why isn't that a problem.
It isn't a problem for ME because I don't believe in predictive prophecy. I'd agree that it should be a problem for Christians and Jews, though.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 10:48 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 11:25 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 114 of 716 (704038)
08-02-2013 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by PaulK
08-02-2013 10:10 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
But I think we can justifiably argue that if a Jewish understanding of the Jewish scriptures points to Jesus not being the messiah at all then there is a real problem with Christian claims that needs to be addressed.
Hardly. That was addressed and resolved in the very teachings of Jesus himself who exposed the unscriptural understanding of the Pharisees, and today's Jews are the same as those erring Pharisees. They crucified Him because they didn't believe He was the Messiah, and nothing has changed in their view of Him today either. Why on earth should we reconsider something that was so definitively put to rest in Jesus' own time.
No, as I showed you'd have to rewrite pretty much the entire NT
because there what we have is Jesus doing not one single thing to suggest He intended to fulfill the worldly aims of the Jews as a conquering hero, quite the opposite, as I pointed out, also we have the Jewish leaders being denounced by Jesus as wrong wrong wrong.
Where did you "show" this ? Because it certainly isn't true that I'd have to rewrite a word of it.
I pointed out that Jesus didn't do one thing that suggested an ambition to establish an earthly kingdom that would involve political and military arrangements. He taught, he did miracles, nothing suggestive of the kind of Messiah some of the Jews were wrongly expecting. You didn't bother to answer this but it's a fact that everything Jesus did works against such an idea, as well as everything He taught, most particularly "My Kingdom is not of this world."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 10:10 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 11:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 115 of 716 (704040)
08-02-2013 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
08-02-2013 11:10 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
quote:
Hardly. That was addressed and resolved in the very teachings of Jesus himself who exposed the unscriptural understanding of the Pharisees, and today's Jews are the same as those erring Pharisees. They crucified Him because they didn't believe He was the Messiah, and nothing has changed in their view of Him today either. Why on earth should we reconsider something that was so definitively put to rest in Jesus' own time.
If you have an answer then that's no reason for not producing it. If you don't then all that is just a bluff.
quote:
I pointed out that Jesus didn't do one thing that suggested an ambition to establish an earthly kingdom that would involve political and military arrangements. He taught, he did miracles, nothing suggestive of the kind of Messiah some of the Jews were wrongly expecting.
Well that's not entirely true, is it ? Take the context of Zechariah 9 for a start. And the Romans were worried enough to execute him as a rebel. Now I happen to think that Jesus expected God to do most of the killing, but who knows what would have happened if he had got to a position where armed rebellion was a real possibility ?
quote:
You didn't bother to answer this
Because I wanted to see your full argument. Odd then, that you don't answer my question of where I can find it.
quote:
You didn't bother to answer this but it's a fact that everything Jesus did works against such an idea, as well as everything He taught, most particularly "My Kingdom is not of this world."
If he did indeed teach that. Which we can't really know.
But I'm still waiting to see any real argument that I have to rewrite a word of the Gospels. COme one, Faith. Name one verse - or a larger passage if you need that - that I have to rewrite. And explain WHY I have to rewrite it, rather than, say, simply not believing it to be accurate. RIght now I see less cause for you to accuse me of rewriting them than I have to make the same accusation of Biblical inerrantists like you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 11:10 AM Faith has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 116 of 716 (704054)
08-02-2013 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
07-30-2013 2:19 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
If you look at the requirements of being THE Messiah found in the Old Testament, Jesus is not The Messiah.
Then was he the Elijah, which is SPECIFICALLY stated in the Bible about "the one who comes" according to Mal 4:6, as John asked of Jesus?
Matthew 11:3
And asked Him, Are You the One Who was to come, or should we keep on expecting a different one?
Was Christ the Elijah, returned in 32AD?
They both did the same miracles, which was traditional supposed to identify Elijah when would come back.
Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead
Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal.
Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.
Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses.
Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.
Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.
Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.
Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days.
Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.
Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.
Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.
Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities
Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead
Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.
Both asked that the this "cup" be taken from them.
Both are said to have had miraculous births.
Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd
Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.
Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 07-30-2013 2:19 PM jar has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 117 of 716 (704055)
08-02-2013 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
07-30-2013 2:19 PM


Re: Two Messiahs or Two Advents?
If you look at the requirements of being THE Messiah found in the Old Testament, Jesus is not The Messiah.
How about when we look at the Jewish requirements?
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5849-eschatology
The Messiah will furthermore win the heathen by the spirit of wisdom and righteousness which rests upon him (Sibyllines, iii. 780; Test. Patr., Levi, 18; Judah, 24; Targ. Yer. to Gen. xlix. 12 and Isa. xli. 1).
He will teach the nations the Noachian laws of humanity and make all men disciples of the Lord (Midr. Teh. xxi.).
The wonders of the time of Moses will be repeated on a larger scale in the time of the Messiah (Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 8, after Micah vii. 15; comp. Hosea ii. 17; Targ.; Tan., Bo, ed. Buber, 6).
What Moses, the first redeemer, did is typical of what the Messiah as the last redeemer will do (Eccl. R. i. 9). The redemption will be in the same month of Nisan, (at the Passover seders), and in the same night (Mek., Bo, 14); the same pillar of cloud will lead Israel (Philo, "De Execrationibus," 8; Targ. Yer. to Isa. xxxv. 10):
the same plagues will be sent upon Israel's foes (Tan., Wa'era, ed. Buber, 15; Bo, 6, 19; Midr. Wayosha'; Jellinek, "B. H." i. 45);
the redeemer will ride on an "donkey" (Zech. ix. 9; comp. Ex. iv. 20);
manna, (transubstantiation?) will again be sent down from heaven (Ps. lxxii. 16; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 24; Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxix. 8);
and water rise from beneath by miraculous power (Joel iv. [A. V. iii.] 18; comp. Ps. lxxviii. 15 et seq.; Eccl. R. i. 9).
Like Moses, the Messiah will disappear for 40 days after his appearance (Pesiḥ. R. 15; Pesiḥ. v. 49b, after Hosea v. 15).
The same number of people will be redeemed (Sanh. 111a)
and the Song of Moses be replaced by another song , (the New Testament)(Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 1; Rev. xv. 3).
But, like Moses, the Messiah will die (II Esd. l.c.); the opinion that the Messiah will not taste death (Midr. Teh. lxxii. 17) seems to be of later origin, and will be discussed in connection with the account of the Messiah from the tribe of Joseph or Ephraim (see below).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 07-30-2013 2:19 PM jar has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 716 (704061)
08-02-2013 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by PaulK
08-02-2013 11:04 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
But you're missing the hidden assumption that Judaism is correct.
Why would I accept that assumption in an argument that is essentially about whether Judaism is correct?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by PaulK, posted 08-02-2013 11:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by kofh2u, posted 08-02-2013 9:06 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 122 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2013 2:07 AM NoNukes has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 119 of 716 (704068)
08-02-2013 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by NoNukes
08-02-2013 7:44 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Why would I accept that assumption in an argument that is essentially about whether Judaism is correct?
...because what YOU say is an assumption, that Judaism is correct, is now a fact.
Israel, that Suffering Servant, now has manifested as the messiah which is collecting all the Jews for the great day of the King over them, (religiously), who opens "the Book sealed with the seven seals."
Amplified Bible
Rev 5:5 Then one of the elders of the heavenly Sanhedrin said to me, Stop weeping! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root (Source) of David, has won (has overcome and conquered)! He can open the scroll and break its seven seals!
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 7:44 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2013 11:23 PM kofh2u has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 716 (704071)
08-02-2013 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by kofh2u
08-02-2013 9:06 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
srael, that Suffering Servant, now has manifested as the messiah
What? I though you were the messiah???

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by kofh2u, posted 08-02-2013 9:06 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by kofh2u, posted 08-03-2013 7:58 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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