Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is God one or three?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 31 of 87 (703942)
07-31-2013 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
07-31-2013 7:03 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
You do realise that you're arguing with a Jew who is hardly going to be persuaded by an argument based almost entirely on Christian scripture?
And I might note that arguing by link is against forum guidelines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-31-2013 7:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 07-31-2013 9:09 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 32 of 87 (703944)
07-31-2013 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by PaulK
07-31-2013 8:19 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
You do realise that you're arguing with a Jew who is hardly going to be persuaded by an argument based almost entirely on Christian scripture?
But not entirely, enough is based on the OT to make the case, not to mention that on the general subject of the Messiah I showed that there are Jewish teachers who recognize the Suffering Servant as Messianic, which any honest person ought to acknowledge undoes any accusation that Christians made it up.
And YOU do realize, I hope, that he's arguing with a Christian who is hardly going to be persuaded by an argument based entirely on Jewish traditional debunkery of the claims of Christ that the Church has dealt with over and over down the centuries. He needs to be answered whether he himself benefits from the answer or not.
And I might note that arguing by link is against forum guidelines.
We've had this discussion about this particular link on the thread Bible Something or Traditions of Men, where Purpledawn defended my use of it because I did sketch out the basic argument the link supports and because the entire collection of scriptures is the answer to the challenge, no one or few points being sufficient for the purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2013 8:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by PaulK, posted 07-31-2013 9:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 33 of 87 (703945)
07-31-2013 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
07-31-2013 9:09 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
quote:
But not entirely, enough is based on the OT to make the case,
I'm afraid not. There,s very little, and what little there is relies on interpretations that would need to be defended. Which you aren't doing.
quote:
not to mention that on the general subject of the Messiah I showed that there are Jewish teachers who recognize the Suffering Servant as Messianic, which any honest person ought to acknowledge undoes any accusation that Christians made it up.
And now you're trying to drag the discussion off-topic.
quote:
And YOU do realize, I hope, that he's arguing with a Christian who is hardly going to be persuaded by an argument based entirely on Jewish traditional debunkery of the claims of Christ that the Church has dealt with over and over down the centuries. He needs to be answered whether he himself benefits from the answer or not.
If all you can do is drag up a link that doesn't really deal with his point then you aren't exactly managing to answer him.
quote:
We've had this discussion about this particular link on the thread Bible Something or Traditions of Men, where Purpledawn defended my use of it because I did sketch out the basic argument the link supports and because the entire collection of scriptures is the answer to the challenge, no one or few points being sufficient for the purpose.
Which doesn't make it appropriate to this thread and doesn't excuse your lack of further argument even if Purpledawn was entirely correct (which I don't accept)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 07-31-2013 9:09 AM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 87 (703947)
07-31-2013 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Eliyahu
07-31-2013 3:13 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
In the picture is one clover with three leaves.
That gives us one clover who is three. (leaves}
No, there is only one clover in that picture. The clover is not three, it is one.
But of course you're just playing dumb to try to discredit the trinity doctrine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Eliyahu, posted 07-31-2013 3:13 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Eliyahu, posted 08-01-2013 2:56 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 35 of 87 (703990)
08-01-2013 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
07-31-2013 9:47 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
No, there is only one clover in that picture. The clover is not three, it is one.
Bs'd
Can you understand the difference between "one clover" and "the clover is one"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-31-2013 9:47 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-01-2013 7:58 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-05-2013 10:44 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 87 (703992)
08-01-2013 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Eliyahu
08-01-2013 2:56 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
I have a question for you, Eliyahu. Who is Jesus? Lets assume for a moment that you are correct and that there indeed is only One God.(Which I also believe)
  • Is Jesus more than a human? More than an angel? More than the first created thing? Was He in the beginning with the Father?
    Or more appropriately, was He in the beginning eternally begotten?

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Eliyahu, posted 08-01-2013 2:56 AM Eliyahu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 37 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 12:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 55 by ramoss, posted 08-05-2013 1:08 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Eliyahu
    Member (Idle past 2260 days)
    Posts: 288
    From: Judah
    Joined: 07-23-2013


    Message 37 of 87 (704014)
    08-02-2013 12:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
    08-01-2013 7:58 AM


    Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
    I have a question for you, Eliyahu. Who is Jesus? Lets assume for a moment that you are correct and that there indeed is only One God.(Which I also believe)
    Bs'd
    Also you are overlooking the fact that not only is there one God, but that one God IS one.
    That is the foundation of the Jewish religion:

    שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד


    Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is
    ONE.
    And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
    And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
    and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
    And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
    And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
    Deut 6:4-9
    The fact that God is one is so important that God commands this to be in the heart. It must be diligently taught to the children, the Jews must talk about it when they sit in their houses, when they walk upon the way, when they lie down and when they rise up. They must bind it as a sign upon their arm, and it must be frontlets between their eyes, and they must write it upon the doorposts of their houses and upon their gates. See Deuteronomy 6:4-9
    The Jews until this day do this. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one.
    During the morning and evening prayers they recite this passage that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one.
    So for the Jewish people there is one God, and that one God is one.
    One means one. That is not two, not three, not three in one, not two in one, but ONE:
    Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.
    Is Jesus more than a human? More than an angel? More than the first created thing? Was He in the beginning with the Father?
    Or more appropriately, was He in the beginning eternally begotten?
    No, he was not. He was just a human being, not a divine creature, because there is no God besides Y-H-W-H who is ONE.
    .
    .
    In the service of Y-H-W-H,
    Eliyahu, light unto the nations
    "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
    "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
    .
    .

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-01-2013 7:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by jar, posted 08-02-2013 8:43 AM Eliyahu has not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 38 of 87 (704029)
    08-02-2013 8:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 37 by Eliyahu
    08-02-2013 12:56 AM


    Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
    Of course your quote is from the period when the Hebrews believed there were many gods, not one god.

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 12:56 AM Eliyahu has not replied

      
    Eliyahu
    Member (Idle past 2260 days)
    Posts: 288
    From: Judah
    Joined: 07-23-2013


    Message 39 of 87 (704032)
    08-02-2013 10:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
    07-31-2013 7:03 AM


    Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
    It's derived from scripture.
    Bs'd
    What that means is: There are theories, based on some Scriptural verses, that say that God must be a trinity.
    But the facts of life are: Theories come ten a penny.
    Just as like you can argue for a trinity, you can also argue for a duality, a quartet, or whatever.
    Or just one God who is one, as do the J-H-V-H witnesses.
    Clear Biblical teaching that says "God is three" or "God is a trinity", just doesn't exist.
    Clear Biblical teaching that says that "God is ONE" is all over the Bible.
    But that you ignore, in favor of your theories, which are worth their weight in gold.
    Eliyahu

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-31-2013 7:03 AM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 40 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 10:41 AM Eliyahu has replied
     Message 41 by ringo, posted 08-02-2013 1:31 PM Eliyahu has replied
     Message 45 by Phat, posted 08-04-2013 8:24 AM Eliyahu has replied

      
    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 40 of 87 (704034)
    08-02-2013 10:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Eliyahu
    08-02-2013 10:28 AM


    Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
    It's derived from scripture.
    Bs'd
    What that means is: There are theories, based on some Scriptural verses, that say that God must be a trinity.
    But the facts of life are: Theories come ten a penny.
    You are refusing to recognize the actual facts that SHOW the Trinity from scripture that I have supplied for your consideration, verses that say God is One, verses that say Messiah/Jesus has the attributes of God, verses that say the Holy Spirit has the attributes of God, verses that say that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit act independently of one another and are therefore separate Persons. This is not theory, these are simple facts that together SHOW that God exists in Three Persons while being One God. Address the facts given instead of just shooting off YOUR theories about what I've been saying.
    Just as like you can argue for a trinity, you can also argue for a duality, a quartet, or whatever.
    That is in fact impossible from the actual scriptural facts which have been shown to you. The scripture shows that there are Three and only Three who all possess the attributes of God.
    Or just one God who is one, as do the J-H-V-H witnesses.
    They blindly deny the evidence, just as you do.
    Clear Biblical teaching that says "God is three" or "God is a trinity", just doesn't exist.
    Clear Biblical references that SHOW that God is three, a Trinity, have been shown to you.
    Clear Biblical teaching that says that "God is ONE" is all over the Bible.
    Which is what gives you the excuse to ignore the proof that there are Three who share in the attributes of that One, as SHOWN in the scriptures.
    But that you ignore, in favor of your theories, which are worth their weight in gold.
    Since "God is One" is the first affirmation in the proofs of the Trinity, you are here misrepresenting the argument to the point of lying about it.
    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 10:28 AM Eliyahu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by Eliyahu, posted 08-03-2013 2:13 PM Faith has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 41 of 87 (704048)
    08-02-2013 1:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Eliyahu
    08-02-2013 10:28 AM


    Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
    Eliyahu writes:
    There are theories, based on some Scriptural verses, that say that God must be a trinity.
    And there are theories that God must be "one". There's no more support for one theory than the other. It just depends on which Scriptures you cherry-pick.
    Eliyahu writes:
    Just as like you can argue for a trinity, you can also argue for a duality, a quartet, or whatever.
    A quartet would account for the clover's stem.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 10:28 AM Eliyahu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by Eliyahu, posted 08-03-2013 2:07 PM ringo has replied

      
    Eliyahu
    Member (Idle past 2260 days)
    Posts: 288
    From: Judah
    Joined: 07-23-2013


    Message 42 of 87 (704085)
    08-03-2013 2:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
    08-02-2013 1:31 PM


    Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
    There are theories, based on some Scriptural verses, that say that God must be a trinity.
    And there are theories that God must be "one". There's no more support for one theory than the other. It just depends on which Scriptures you cherry-pick.
    Bs'd
    There is no Biblical verse which says that God is a trinity. Some deduce that by means of theories.
    "God is one" is not a theory, it is a straightforward Biblical teaching:
    "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
    "Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible
    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version
    "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible
    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version
    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"
    .
    .
    "And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version
    The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
    "Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version
    "Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible
    "Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version
    "Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version
    "Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version
    "Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accuratethat God is one" The Message
    "‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
    .
    .

    "Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version
    "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version
    "A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version
    "Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version
    "Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version
    "and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation
    .
    .

    "You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version
    "thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation
    "Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version
    "You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.
    "*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.
    "It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible
    "You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version
    "You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible
    "You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible
    .
    .

    So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.
    .
    .
    "And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version
    "And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version
    "And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version
    "And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible
    .
    .
    In the service of Y-H-W-H,
    Eliyahu, light unto the nations
    "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
    "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
    .
    .

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 41 by ringo, posted 08-02-2013 1:31 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by ringo, posted 08-03-2013 3:22 PM Eliyahu has replied

      
    Eliyahu
    Member (Idle past 2260 days)
    Posts: 288
    From: Judah
    Joined: 07-23-2013


    Message 43 of 87 (704088)
    08-03-2013 2:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
    08-02-2013 10:41 AM


    Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
    Since "God is One" is the first affirmation in the proofs of the Trinity,
    Bs'd
    The above is of course the biggest nonsense anybody can dream up.
    The Biblical fact that God is ONE flies right into the face of the Christian theory that God is three.
    One is not the same as three.
    And three is not the same as one.
    "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
    who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
    who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
    Isaiah 5:20
    WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL THREE ONE AND ONE THREE!!.
    .
    In the service of Y-H-W-H,
    Eliyahu, light unto the nations
    "Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
    "All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
    .
    .

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 10:41 AM Faith has not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 44 of 87 (704090)
    08-03-2013 3:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 42 by Eliyahu
    08-03-2013 2:07 PM


    Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
    Eliyahu writes:
    There is no Biblical verse which says that God is a trinity. Some deduce that by means of theories.
    "God is one" is not a theory, it is a straightforward Biblical teaching:
    It doesn't make any difference whether a theory is based on one verse or several.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 42 by Eliyahu, posted 08-03-2013 2:07 PM Eliyahu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 46 by Eliyahu, posted 08-04-2013 9:53 AM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 45 of 87 (704118)
    08-04-2013 8:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 39 by Eliyahu
    08-02-2013 10:28 AM


    Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
    The Jehovahs Witnesses are a cult. Period. I should hope you don't associate with them, but if you do that would explain a lot.
    Legalism.
    False Pride

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 39 by Eliyahu, posted 08-02-2013 10:28 AM Eliyahu has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 47 by Eliyahu, posted 08-04-2013 9:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 73 by arachnophilia, posted 08-19-2013 2:57 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024