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Author Topic:   Is God one or three?
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 1 of 87 (703750)
07-29-2013 3:57 AM


Bs'd
Christianity claims there is one God. So does Judaism and Islam. So no need to prove that point.
However, where the ways split, is in how many is that one God Himself.
Christianity claims that that one God is three, made up of three different persons, the trinity concept.
Judaism claims that that one God IS ONE, and not two, not three, not three in one, but ONE.
And then of course, the question arises, "What Biblical proof can the parties present in order to substantiate their claim?"
Christianity cannot bring any proof from the Bible that God is a trinity. It just doesn't exist.
Here is the proof that God is one:
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"
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"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version
The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version
"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version
"Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version
"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version
"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accuratethat God is one" The Message
"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
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"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version
"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version
"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version
"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation
.
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"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version
"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation
"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.
"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.
"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible
"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible
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So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.
.
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"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version
"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version
"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version
"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible
.
.
So it looks a kind of clear to me, which dogma is correct, and which one is invented by men, in order to squeeze in their new extra man-god JC.
.
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Greatest I am, posted 07-29-2013 9:38 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 4 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-29-2013 10:18 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 8 of 87 (703782)
07-29-2013 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Greatest I am
07-29-2013 11:05 AM


Let US make man
Bs'd
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.
But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?
Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.
Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?
But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".
BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."
But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".
No trinity.
Another example of a pronoun:
Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.
As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.
Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.
So no three persons in God.
Another one:
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Clear what? It doesn't say: This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.
No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.
Another one:
Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;
Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.
I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.
And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Greatest I am, posted 07-29-2013 11:05 AM Greatest I am has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-29-2013 2:07 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 9 of 87 (703785)
07-29-2013 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by New Cat's Eye
07-29-2013 10:18 AM


GOD IS ONE!!!
Proof? Yeah, I doubt there's going to be anything that anyone can show you that you would accept as proof of the trinity.
But so what? Why should I care if the trinity can't be proved by the Bible?
You know what else you can't prove with the Bible? That the Earth is sphere, or that spiders have eight legs. So what?
Bs'd
That spiders have eight legs is a simple observation, you don't need the Bible for that.
Also the fact that spiders have eight legs, does not contradict the Bible.
However, the trinity, the assumption that God is three, flies right in the face of the BIBLICAL revelation that God is one.
I know it is hard to swallow, but better swallow the bitter pill now and change your ways, then that when you get upstairs you find out that you wasted your whole life by running after the wrong God.
.
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-29-2013 10:18 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-29-2013 2:12 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 4:31 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 07-29-2013 6:23 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 14 of 87 (703850)
07-30-2013 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
07-29-2013 2:07 PM


Re: Let US make man
And a third explanation is that he has multiple personality disorder. We can make up all kinds of stuff.
And just because he refers to himself in the singular in other instances does not mean that he is not referring to himself in the plural in this one.
Bs'd
Since the Bible in many places clear and equivocally states that God is one, it is an absurd notion to assume that God is referring to Himself in the plural because he has a multi-personality disorder.
Or it should be, that He is using a majestic plural.
But one way or another, God is ONE, and not three.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-29-2013 2:07 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 15 of 87 (703851)
07-30-2013 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
07-29-2013 2:12 PM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
That spiders have eight legs is a simple observation, you don't need the Bible for that.
And that the Bible says that Jesus came and said that he was God's son is also simple observation.
Bs'd
Well, it is not just "The Bible" saying that, it is the NT saying that.
That the Bible says that God is also the Holy Spirit is also simple observation.
So we can simply observe that the Bible says that God is made up of three different parts.
A more correct observation would be: In order to believe in the NT, you have to believe that God is made up of three parts.
But the believe that God is three, goes against the Biblical revelation that God is one.
Therefore, believing in the NT is not possible without going against the foundation of the Bible that God is one.
Add to that the fact that JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies,
Add to that the fact that it is absolutely totally forbidden to worship anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H,
And then it should be clear to everybody that the NT is not from God.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-29-2013 2:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-30-2013 9:02 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 16 of 87 (703852)
07-30-2013 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
07-29-2013 6:23 PM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
Of course we know that God is ONE, scripture is very clear about that.
Bs'd
Yes, you can't deny that anymore. So you pay lip service to that fact, only in order to futher on fall back to your position that there is one God who is not one, but three persons.
But scripture also tells us that the Messiah has the attributes of God
Nowhere in the Tanach will you find anything like that.
and that the Holy Spirit has the attributes of God. Scripture says that, scripture. In the Hebrew scriptures there are many hints but two in particular are Jeremiah where the Messiah is called "GOD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" and the other is Isaiah where He is called WONDERFUL COUNSELOR, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, PRINCE OF PEACE. Sure you can rationalize that away and I know you will but as it stands it is very clearly the Name of the Messiah, His actual nature.
A name is not the same as nature. You claim name = nature, but that is of course nonsense.
I had a neighbour who's name was Immanuel. Was that neighbour God?
Because of the fact that the name of the son is "Mighty God", (or "God is Mighty", both are possible translations) and "Eternals Father", the Christians deduce that the boy spoken about must have been God.
HOWEVER, a name is only that; a name. A name is not a description of the bearer of that name. An example: Buffalo Bill was not a buffalo. The indian chief Sitting Bull was not a bull.
Many times people in the Bible have in their name the word "God", or the name of God, but that doesn't mean that those people are God. For instance; in Exodus 6:23 is spoken about a man called "Elazar". That means "God is helper", or "Helping God". But that doesn't mean that that man was God.
Exodus 6:24; "Elkanah", that means "God acquired", or "acquiring God". II Samuel 22:19; "Elchanan"; "God is merciful", or "Merciful God". But these men were not God, just like the the child in Isaiah 9 wasn't God.
But then we have many places in the New Testament where Jesus identifies Himself with God as well. And the Holy Spirit, again, is described with the attributes of God. AND all three are described as separate individual personalities or "persona." Hence, One God in Three Persons.
And with that you throw out the fact that God is one.
Just keep in mind, that only if you want to believe in the NT, you have to turn God from one into three.
So he starts of course with the scriptures that affirm that God is One. The Trinity is revealed by the other scriptures that describe the Messiah as Jehovah God and Jesus Christ as Jehovah God, the Holy Spirit as Jehovah God etc. The Father is one of the three Persons but sometimes is referred to merely as "God" depending on context.
The Tanach, for the Christians the OT, teaches very clearly that there is only ONE God, and that is Y-H-W-H.
People who want to look that over in detail can look here: https://sites.google.com/site/777mountzion/god-of-israel
So if anybody wants to say that JC was God, or divine, than he has no choice than to say that JC was Y-H-W-H, because there simply is no other God than Y-H-W-H.
But then you encounter the following problems:
If anybody says JC is the same as Y-H-W-H then you are stuck with the fact that Y-H-W-H is his own son and at the same time his own father.
Then you are stuck with the fact that when JC prays to his father, Y-H-W-H is praying to himself.
Luke 22:41-42: and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here Y-H-W-H has a different will than himself???
Even in heaven JC is subjected to the Father, according to Corinthians 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fillipens 2:9, and others.
So Y-H-W-H is subjected to himself???
When JC was hanging at the cross, he cried out: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? Matthew 27:46
So Y-H-W-H forsook himself???
Collossians 3:1; set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.
Y-H-W-H is sitting at his own right hand???
Y-H-W-H died at the cross, slaughtered by his own creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?
Remember there is only one God: Y-H-W-H who IS one.
By now it should be clear to everybody that it is IMPOSSIBLE that JC was or is God.
The Lord our God is indeed ONE GOD, but three separate persons make up that one God. ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. We can't comprehend this but there it is in the scripture so it must be acknowledged.
So if you will consider this honestly you can see that the Trinity is definitely Biblical.
There is definitely NOTHING, not even in the NT, that says that God is three, three in one, a trinity, or anything like that.
It is just an illogical, extra-Biblical, pagan, notion that is used in order to squeeze in and extra man-god; JC.
And it flies right into the face of the BIBLICAL teaching that God is one.

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד


Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is
ONE.
And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9
Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.
Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.
Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.
.
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 07-29-2013 6:23 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 07-30-2013 8:22 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 17 of 87 (703853)
07-30-2013 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
07-29-2013 4:31 PM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
I'm sorry but the god you are marketing is simply too silly for words and certainly unworthy of even respect, much less worship.
Bs'd
My God is Y-H-W-H, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Israel, the creator of heaven and earth.
Your god is a man, with that you follow in a long pagan tradition of turning men into gods.
The Japanese believed only shortly ago that their emperor was god, a descendant of the sun.
There are too many man-gods in history to mention.
My God is not a man.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 07-29-2013 4:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 07-30-2013 8:20 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 28 of 87 (703937)
07-31-2013 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
07-30-2013 8:22 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
Oh the lovely Jehovah always was three
Bs'd
But you don't deny that God is one???
No, the Son cried out to the Father, and the Man cried out to God. This is Jesus speaking the words of Psalm 22:1, a messianic psalm describing what He has come to suffer. He was forsaken by the Father for our sins which He bore in His body, the sins we deserve to be punished for, but He took the punishment upon Himself, which of course means He was being forsaken in our place -- WE deserve to be forsaken by God and Jesus had to endure it to pay for our sins; and it was very hard for Him to bear, to be forsaken by the Father with whom He had always had intimate fellowship.
Let me spell this out for you: You have at least two, or three, persons, who are all divine.
A divine person is a god. Having three divine persons = having three gods.
You try to get around that problem by saying 1 + 1 + 1 = 1.
But worshipping a whole divine family is polytheism = IDOLATRY!!
And Psalm 22 is just the so maniest Christian falsification of their Bible translations:
Psalm 22
To begin with; the Psalms are not prophetic writings. Also Psalm 22 does not claim to prophesize about the messiah. It is nowhere written: The messiah will come and he will call out during his execution: My God, my God, why did you forsake me? This is king David speaking about himself. This Psalm is written mainly in the past tense, and describes the tribulations King David went through. But, as shown before, the authentic messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled by Jesus, and therefore Christianity has to resort to Biblical texts that have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as messianic prophecies. Because of the fact that, according the NT, Jesus quoted Psalms during his execution, the Christians claim that this Psalm must be a prophecy about the messiah. An upside down proof based upon nothing. And even that is not enough. In order to make it a little more authentic Christianity squeezed in the infamous falsification about the piercing of hand and feet. See verse 16: Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet. They say: Look! Here is the crucifixion, prophesized in the Psalms!
Point one: It is not written here that that the hands and feet of the messiah would be pierced. Like I pointed out: King David speaks here about himself, and that in the past tense. And on top of that: there is no such a thing as they pierced my hand an feet. The Hebrew word that is here translated as 'pierced' is 'ka'arie'. There is no word that even comes close to ka'arie that means piercing. To call this a mistranslation is too euphemistic, we should call this just what it is; another Christian falsification of their Bible translations, in order to squeeze in JC. The word that comes the closest is 'karah', but it is impossible to fit that in here, because that would violate almost every rule in the Hebrew grammar. And besides that, karah does not mean piercing, but 'to dig up, to bring up from the ground' (in the sense of mining)
The Hebrew prefix 'ka' means: 'as the', and the Hebrew word 'arie' means 'lion'. So what it says here is: "Like the lion [they are at] my hands and feet." The text between the square brackets is my insertion. So King David, who is not prophesizing about the messiah here, is speaking about a lion, and not about piercing hands and feet. The same lion he speaks about in verse 13 and 21.
Also the modern day Bible translations translate this in the wrong way. I could find only one Christian Bible translation who translates this verse in the right way, and that is the translation of the Y-H-V-H witnesses. But at least the modern Bible translations have the decency to write that there is no such thing in the Hebrew text.
My edition of the Revised Standard Version has a footnote with the word pierced in verse 16, it says there: "Gk Syr Jerome: Heb like a lion" That means that the translators get the word pierced from the ancient Greek translation; the Septuaginth, and from the Syriac translation, and from the Vulgata, the Catholic translation of the Bible into Latin, made by Jerome, on the request of Pope Damascus, in 328 CE. But this: Heb like a lion means that they admit that in the Hebrew is written: Like a lion.
Here is the footnote of the New American Standard Bible Update (1995): "Another reading is like a lion, my..."
And here is the footnote of the New International Version: "Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint and Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts: 'like the lion,"
What the Bible translators are doing here is ignoring the original Hebrew Bible, and translating translations instead, because that fits the Christian theology better.
But the exact same word "ka'arie" is used in Isaiah 38:13. This claim can be checked out by people who cannot read Hebrew, by means of the Christian Hebrew-English interlinear, that is a Hebrew text of the Tanach, (OT), with under each word an English translation. Provided by a Christian institution. Look here: Online Hebrew Interlinear Bible and look there how it is translated there. It is possible to zoom into the text.
On the right side of the Hebrew text is a normal English translation. Now look at the discrepancy between how the Hebrew is translated right underneath, and how it is translated in the text on the right side. VERY educational!
And look here how the English translations translate the word "ka'arie" in Isaiah 38:11;
New International Version I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones;
ew American Standard Bible: I composed my soul until morning. Like a lion--so He breaks all my bones,
The Message: I cry for help until morning. Like a lion, God pummels and pounds me,
Amplified Bible: I thought and quieted myself until morning. Like a lion He breaks all my bones;
New Living Translation: I waited patiently all night, but I was torn apart as though by lions.
King James Version: I reckoned till morning, that, as a lion, so will he break all my bones:
English Standard Version: I calmed myself until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;
Contemporary English Version: Until morning came, I thought you would crush my bones just like a hungry lion;
New King James Version: I have considered until morning-- Like a lion, So He breaks all my bones;
New Century Version: "I waited patiently till dawn, but like a lion he broke all my bones"
21st Century King James Version: I reckoned till morning that, as a lion, so will He break all my bones;
American Standard Version: I quieted myself until morning; as a lion, so he breaketh all my bones:
Young's Literal Translation: I have set [Him] till morning as a lion, So doth He break all my bones,
Darby Translation: I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones.
Revised Standard version: I cry for help until morning; like a lion he breaks all my bones;
Another place where we see the word "ka'arie" is in Numbers 24:9. See here how it is there translated:
New International Version Like a lion they crouch and lie down"
New American Standard Bible: He crouches, he lies down as a lion"
The Message: Israel crouches like a lion and naps"
Amplified Bible: He couched, he lay down as a lion"
New Living Translation: Like a lion, Israel crouches and lies down"
King James Version: He couched, he lay down as a lion"
English Standard Version: He crouched, he lay down like a lion"
Contemporary English Version: Like a lion you lie down"
New King James Version: He bows down, he lies down as a lion"
New Century Version: Like a lion, they lie waiting to attack"
21th Century King James Version: "He couched, he lay down as a lion"
American Standard Version: He couched, he lay down as a lion"
Young's Literal Translation: He hath bent, he hath lain down as a lion"
Darby Translation: He stooped, he lay down like a lion"
Revised Standard version: He couched, he lay down like a lion"
Also in Ezechiel 22:25 we encounter the same word "ka'arie", followed by the word "sho'eig", which means "roaring".
See here how that is translated:Ezekiel 22:25 KJ21
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 ASV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 AMP
There is a conspiracy of [Israel’s false] prophets in the midst of her, like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 CEB
The conspiracy of princes in her is like a roaring lion ripping up prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 CJB
There is a conspiracy of prophets in it like a roaring lion tearing up the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 CEV
Their leaders are like roaring lions, tearing apart their victims.
Ezekiel 22:25 DARBY
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst of her like a roaring lion ravening the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 DRA
There is a conspiracy of prophets in the midst thereof: like a lion that roareth and catcheth the prey,
Ezekiel 22:25 ERV
The prophets in Jerusalem are making evil plans. They are like a lionit roars when it begins to eat the animal it
caught.
Ezekiel 22:25 ESV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 ESVUK
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 EXB
Like a roaring lion that tears the animal it has caught [its prey], Israel’s rulers [princes] make evil plans [conspire].
Ezekiel 22:25 GNV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof like a roaring lion, ravening the prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 GW
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.
Ezekiel 22:25 GNT
The leaders are like lions roaring over the animals they have killed.
Ezekiel 22:25 HCSB
The conspiracy of her prophets within her is like a roaring lion tearing its prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 KJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 AKJV
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey;
Ezechiel 22: KNOX
What of the prophets? A sworn conspiracy; lions roaring for their prey, the lives of men;
Ezekiel 22:25 LEB
The conspiracy of its prophets in the midst of her is like a roaring lion that is tearing prey.
Ezekiel 22:2523- MSG
The leaders among you became desperate, like roaring, ravaging lions killing indiscriminately.
Ezekiel 22:25 NOG
Your princes are like roaring lions who tear their prey into pieces.
Ezekiel 22:25 NASB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets in her midst like a roaring lion tearing the prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 NCV
Like a roaring lion that tears the animal it has caught, Israel’s rulers make evil plans.
Ezekiel 22:25 NET
Her princes within her are like a roaring lion tearing its prey; they have devoured lives.
Ezekiel 22:25 NIRV
Ezekiel, the princes of the land are like a roaring lion that tears its food apart.
Ezekiel 22:25 NIV
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NIVUK
There is a conspiracy of her princes within her like a roaring lion tearing its prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NKJV
The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NLV
Israel’s false religious leaders are making plans within her. They are like a lion making noise over the food it has killed.
Ezekiel 22:25 NLT
Your princes plot conspiracies just as lions stalk their prey.
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSV
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVA
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVACE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 NRSVCE
Its princes within it are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Yechezkel 22: OJB
There is a kesher of her nevi’im in the midst thereof, like a roaring ari lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 RSV
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey; t
Ezekiel 22:25 RSVCE
Her princes in the midst of her are like a roaring lion tearing the prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 VOICE
Her prophets conspire in her midst like raging lions killing their prey;
Ezekiel 22:25 WEB
There is a conspiracy of her prophets within it, like a roaring lion ravening the prey:
Ezekiel 22:25 WYC
Swearing together, either conspiring, of prophets is in the midst thereof; as a lion roaring and taking prey like a lion roaring and taking prey,
Ezekiel 22:25 YLT
A conspiracy of its prophets [is] in its midst, as a roaring lion tearing prey;
So the translators know very well what "ka'arie" means. It is just that in Psalm 22 (almost) all the Christian Bible translators are collectively struck with blindness, and go astray.
But here we see what ka’arie means: As the lion, and, more important, we clearly see what is does NOT mean: "piercing".
So in Psalm 22 it does not speak about the final messiah, and not about a crucifixion, and the piercing in Psalm 22 is just another Christian falsification of their Bible translations.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 07-30-2013 8:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-31-2013 7:03 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 29 of 87 (703938)
07-31-2013 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
07-30-2013 9:02 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
Try looking at the clover leaves again. Then tell me how many leaves it has. Then tell me how many clovers are in the picture.
Bs'd
In the picture is one clover with three leaves.
That gives us one clover who is three. (leaves}
Evenso, you have one God who is three. (persons).
The Bible teaches us there is one God who is one. (absolutely totally one)
Therefore the trinity concept which is nowhere to be found in the Bible, goes agains the Biblical teaching that the one God is one.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-30-2013 9:02 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-31-2013 9:47 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 35 of 87 (703990)
08-01-2013 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
07-31-2013 9:47 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
No, there is only one clover in that picture. The clover is not three, it is one.
Bs'd
Can you understand the difference between "one clover" and "the clover is one"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-31-2013 9:47 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-01-2013 7:58 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-05-2013 10:44 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 37 of 87 (704014)
08-02-2013 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
08-01-2013 7:58 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
I have a question for you, Eliyahu. Who is Jesus? Lets assume for a moment that you are correct and that there indeed is only One God.(Which I also believe)
Bs'd
Also you are overlooking the fact that not only is there one God, but that one God IS one.
That is the foundation of the Jewish religion:

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד


Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is
ONE.
And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9
The fact that God is one is so important that God commands this to be in the heart. It must be diligently taught to the children, the Jews must talk about it when they sit in their houses, when they walk upon the way, when they lie down and when they rise up. They must bind it as a sign upon their arm, and it must be frontlets between their eyes, and they must write it upon the doorposts of their houses and upon their gates. See Deuteronomy 6:4-9
The Jews until this day do this. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one.
During the morning and evening prayers they recite this passage that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one.
So for the Jewish people there is one God, and that one God is one.
One means one. That is not two, not three, not three in one, not two in one, but ONE:
Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.
Is Jesus more than a human? More than an angel? More than the first created thing? Was He in the beginning with the Father?
Or more appropriately, was He in the beginning eternally begotten?
No, he was not. He was just a human being, not a divine creature, because there is no God besides Y-H-W-H who is ONE.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-01-2013 7:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 08-02-2013 8:43 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 39 of 87 (704032)
08-02-2013 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
07-31-2013 7:03 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
It's derived from scripture.
Bs'd
What that means is: There are theories, based on some Scriptural verses, that say that God must be a trinity.
But the facts of life are: Theories come ten a penny.
Just as like you can argue for a trinity, you can also argue for a duality, a quartet, or whatever.
Or just one God who is one, as do the J-H-V-H witnesses.
Clear Biblical teaching that says "God is three" or "God is a trinity", just doesn't exist.
Clear Biblical teaching that says that "God is ONE" is all over the Bible.
But that you ignore, in favor of your theories, which are worth their weight in gold.
Eliyahu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-31-2013 7:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 10:41 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 08-02-2013 1:31 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 08-04-2013 8:24 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 42 of 87 (704085)
08-03-2013 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
08-02-2013 1:31 PM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
There are theories, based on some Scriptural verses, that say that God must be a trinity.
And there are theories that God must be "one". There's no more support for one theory than the other. It just depends on which Scriptures you cherry-pick.
Bs'd
There is no Biblical verse which says that God is a trinity. Some deduce that by means of theories.
"God is one" is not a theory, it is a straightforward Biblical teaching:
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"
.
.
"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version
The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version
"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version
"Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version
"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version
"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accuratethat God is one" The Message
"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
.
.

"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version
"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version
"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version
"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation
.
.

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version
"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation
"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.
"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.
"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible
"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible
.
.

So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.
.
.
"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version
"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version
"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version
"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 08-02-2013 1:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 08-03-2013 3:22 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 43 of 87 (704088)
08-03-2013 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
08-02-2013 10:41 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
Since "God is One" is the first affirmation in the proofs of the Trinity,
Bs'd
The above is of course the biggest nonsense anybody can dream up.
The Biblical fact that God is ONE flies right into the face of the Christian theory that God is three.
One is not the same as three.
And three is not the same as one.
"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil,
who put darkness for light and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."
Isaiah 5:20
WOE TO THOSE WHO CALL THREE ONE AND ONE THREE!!.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 08-02-2013 10:41 AM Faith has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 46 of 87 (704123)
08-04-2013 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
08-03-2013 3:22 PM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
It doesn't make any difference whether a theory is based on one verse or several.
Bs'd
Be that as it may, that still doesn't change the fact that the fact that God is one is not a theory, but a straightforward Biblical teaching.
The trinity however, is NOWHERE to be found in the Bible, and must be distilled with several theories and deductions.
And there are still groups of Christians which will not accept the trinity at all.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 08-03-2013 3:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 08-06-2013 12:15 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
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