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Author Topic:   Scriptural evidence that Jesus is Messiah:
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 266 of 304 (703729)
07-29-2013 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archangel
12-18-2011 3:57 PM


JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies!
Bs'd
JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies!
Here are a few examples:
Micha 5:2-9; "But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for NOW shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders. And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off."
Here we have very clearly physical redemption from earthly enemies: "And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword", "Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off." These are very clear verses that can not be misinterpreted; when the messiah comes the Jewish enemies are going to be slaughtered. And the one coming forth from Bethlehem is to be a ruler in Israel, that is a king, or maybe nowadays a president, but not a wandering preacher and miracle healer.
Zacheriah 9:9-10; "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth."
They say that he did ride on a donkey, like the whole Middle East in those days, but that is where it stops. He did not bring any peace, the battle bow, the horses and the chariots, symbols of war, were not cut off from Jerusalem, and his dominion was not from sea to sea and to the ends of the earth; as a matter of fact, he did not have any dominion at all.
In order to get around this problem, the Christian church invented the "second coming". However, nowhere in the Hebrew scriptures is it written that the messiah would come once, get himself killed, and come again in a second coming. This is a pure rationalization of Jesus' failure to function in any way as a messiah. Nowhere in any of the above prophecies does it indicate that there will be a gap of at least 2000 years between the birth of the messiah and the redemption. Nowhere does it speak about a messiah being tortured to death and coming back thousands of years later.
Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
When the branch of righteousness springs forth to David, when the messiah comes, THEN, IN THOSE DAYS, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem shall dwell safely. That means that it is impossible to squeeze in two thousand or more years between the coming of the messiah and the redemption of Judah and Jerusalem. Out goes the 'second coming'. However, there wasn't any redemption in the days of Jesus. Forty years after his death, in 70 CE, Jerusalem was totally destroyed by the Romans, the second Temple was burned down, and the Jews exiled. No way that the above prophecy was fulfilled.
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Isaiah 11; "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."
Also here we have a messiah who is going to kill the evil people: "And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked." And after that we get the better world, when it says: "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them etc." This is what is supposed to happen, as soon as there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse (the father of King David) and a Branch shall grow out of his roots; that is as soon as the messiah comes. Nowhere here is mentioned that the messiah will be killed and that these prophecies will happen at least 2000 years later. On the contrary; when the messiah comes redemption comes. And also for this messianic prophecy you don't have to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist in order to see that it is not fulfilled. Nothing of this all was done by Jesus. Conclusion: He was not the messiah.
In order to get around this problem, what the NT and the Christians do, is ripping Tanach texts which have no bearing whatsoever on the messiah, out of context, usually mistranslating them, and then presenting them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".
This is also what Archangel is doing.
I go deeper into this subject on this page: 324x0 - MountZion
For the NT doing the same thing, look here: NT prophecies - MountZion
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Archangel, posted 12-18-2011 3:57 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 267 of 304 (703730)
07-29-2013 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by ramoss
10-05-2012 3:33 PM


Re: Contradictions in the Bible
Matthew is not ambiguous in his words - "Now all this happened so that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, SAYING, "Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuek" (which is translated, God with us.)).
Yes, Matthew quoted from Isaiah ,using the Septuagint, to promote Jesus to a group of Hellenistic Jews. However, this is what is known as 'shoe horning', because if you read the actual passage, it has nothing to do with a virgin. The word 'parthenos' at the time Matthew used ti mainly meant Virgin, yes, but when Isaiah was first translated, a number of centuries earlier, it did not mainly carry that connotation. This is writing after the fact to retrofit concepts.. it is evidence that Matthew was selling the idea that Jesus was the Messiah, but he was misusing the Jewish scriptures by mistranslation and out of context quotes to do so. It might be evidence of the idea that Matthew was pushing.. but after the fact retrofitting is not particularly convincing.
As a matter of fact, I consider that method something called "LYING". To make his theological point, he LIED about the jewish scriptures.
Bs'd
Not only did Matthew lie about Isaiah 7:14, he lied about a lot more.
See here:
The NT brings us prophecies of which it claims that they are fulfilled by JC.
Let us take a closer look at those. The first one we find in Matthew 1:21; she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).
This text can be found in Isaiah 7:14; Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. Revised Standard Version.
We see here that here in Isaiah is not spoken about a virgin, but about a young woman. It is of course much more normal that a young woman gets pregnant than that a virgin gets pregnant. But Isaiah clearly speaks about a young woman, and not a virgin. Some translations say, for instance the King James, say in Isaiah 7:14 virgin, and not young woman, but that is a wrong translation. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 7:14 is almah, and that means young woman, and not virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is betulah. That word is used for instance when the Torah speaks about Rebecca in Gen 24:16; The maiden was very fair to look upon, a virgin, whom no man had known.
This fact is recognized by many Christian Bible translators. For instance the New English Bible, the Good News Bible, the Revised Standard Version, and the New World Translation have translated this in the right way, and not as virgin.
So the NT has been misquoting the Hebrew Bible.
Nowhere in the Tanach (Tanach is compilation of the first letters of the three parts of the Hebrew Bible, Torah, Nevi'iem, (prophets), and Chetuviem, (writings)) is a virgin to be found who would get pregnant. In fact, NOWHERE in the Tanach does a virgin bear a child. This concept is only to found in pagan mythology.
And when we look at the whole chapter of Isaiah 7, then we see that it doesn't speak about the messiah. It speaks about God giving a sign to Achaz, that he will have peace in his days.
This chapter has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.
What the NT does is ripping a text out of context, mistranslating it, and presenting it as a messianic prophecy.
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Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matt 2:14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."
Here a text from Hosea 11: 1 which says: out of Egypt I called my son is applied to the messiah.
But let's take a look WHO is the son of God in the Tanach: And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'" Exodus 4:22
This is clear language. And also in Hosea 11:1 it CLEARLY speaks about Israel, which has been led out of slavery from Egypt by God. See here Hosea 11:1 complete, and not a part ripped out of context: When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Just read the whole chapter of Hosea 11 and see that it all speaks about Israel, and not about the messiah.
What the NT is doing here once again is ripping a piece of text out of context which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and then present it as a messianic prophecy. Something it obviously is not.
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Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matt 2:16-18 Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about a slaughter of children, taking place in the days of the messiah.
And now read what is really happening there: Jeremiah 31: 10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the coastlands afar off; say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him. 12 They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. 13 Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. 14 I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the LORD." 15 Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not." 16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.
As everyone can see, this speaks about Israel which went into exile, and of whom God says that they will return from the exile back to the land of Israel.
Another text which has no bearing on the slaughter of children in the days of messiah which is ripped out of context by the NT and is presented to us as a messianic prophecy.
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Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matthew 2:23 And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
This prophecy won't take up much time, because you can go through the whole Hebrew Bible, and NOWHERE is it written that the messiah should live in Nazareth, or the he should be called Nazarene.
So the NT is also giving non-existing prophecies.
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Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matthew 26:14-15 "Then one of the twelve, who is called Judas Iscariot, having gone unto the chief priests, said, `What are ye willing to give me, and I will deliver him up to you?' and they weighed out to him thirty silverlings,"
Matthew 27: "3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."
This OT text can by found in Zech 11:12 "I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter."
As we see here in Zechariah, there is no messiah to be seen who is being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. And no potters fields are being bought in Zechariah.
As a matter of fact, in all of this text in Zechariah is no potter to be found.
No potter to be found?
No potter to be found.
The above translation of Zechariah 11:12 is from the New International Version. It says that Zechariah threw the money to the "potter" in the Temple.
In the Hebrew is written "yotseer". That can mean "potter", but it can also mean "treasurer".
In the Temple weren't any potters sitting around. Who was sitting there, was a treasurer, who accepted the gifts for the Temple.
So Zechariah doesn't speak about a potter, but about a treasurer.
This fact is recognized by the Revised Standard Version, it says here "treasurer" in stead of "potter".
Also Youngs Literal Translation says here "treasurer", and also the Contemporary English Version says here "treasury".
The Stone Edition of the Tanach says: "HASHEM (literally: "The Name) said to me, "Throw it to the treasurer of the Precious Stronghold which I have divested from them". So I threw it into the Temple of HASHEM, to the treasurer."
Also the New World Translation of the Watch Tower Society gives a good translation: At that, J-e-h-o-v-a-h said to me: Throw it to the treasurythe majestic value with which I have been valued from their standpoint. Accordingly I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw it into the treasury at the house of J-e-h-o-v-a-h."
So what we see here, is that there is no "potter" in Zechariah, and that the whole NT story about buying land of a potter has no bearing whatsoever on the text in Zechariah.
Also we have here a clear proof that the NT text is so orchestrated that it looks as if it fulfills OT prophecies. But because of the fact that they make here another mistake in the translation, the set up is clear to see for everybody.
And there is more. Look again to Matthew 27 and see what the Christians won't tell you: "9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."
So here we see that Matthew claims that this text comes from Jeremiah, when in truth, it comes from Zechariah.
Another slip up of the New Testament which is supposedly divinely inspired.
Matthew was not capable of naming the right prophet.
And this is supposed to "proof" that JC is the messiah.
Well, with friends like Matthew, you don't need enemies anymore.
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Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Luke 24: 44 Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
But the problem is: NOWHERE in the Tanach is it written that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Another NT quote of OT prophecy which is nowhere to be found in the OT.
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ramoss, posted 10-05-2012 3:33 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 268 of 304 (703731)
07-29-2013 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by jaywill
10-06-2012 9:22 PM


Re: Numerology and snippets
"But to Abraham were the promises spoken to his seed. He does not say, "And to the seeds," as concerning many, but as concerning one: "And to your seed," who is Christ " (Galatians 3:16)
How do you like that "snippet" there? Paul turns a major doctrinal concept just based on the presence or absence of one letter!
Bs'd
The most amazing part however, is that it is plain wrong.
Look at the next text: " in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore; "
Gen 22:17
The word "seed" is in the singular, but it will be "as the stars of the heaven."
Many times in the Tanach is the word "seed" used for multiple offspring.
So that piece of exegesis of Paul is totally of the mark.
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jaywill, posted 10-06-2012 9:22 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 269 of 304 (703732)
07-29-2013 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Granny Magda
10-04-2012 10:57 AM


Ripping random texts out of context and presenting them as "messianic prophecies"
This is close enough for me to accept the prophet's word about a virgin being with child ... Emmanuel, having a dual fulfillment in Isaiah's child and in the birth of the Son of God.
Huh? There's no link between the two. they're from totally different authors, writing about different subjects at different times. You're acting as though the Bible were a single monolithic source; it's not, it's a patchwork of many different sources, by differing authors with differing intents. I think that your whole approach to reading these books is fundamentally flawed at that this is encouraging you to make serious errors.
Bs'd
Exactly.
And of course, when you randomly take Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and rip them out of context, and then mistranslate them, and then say they are messianic prophecies because of "dual fulfillment", then you can make everybody you want the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:
A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery
My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.
1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)
2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)
3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)
4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)
5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)
6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)
7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)
9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)
11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)
12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)
13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)
14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)
16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)
17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)
18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)
19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)
20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)
21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)
23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)
24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)
25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)
26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)
27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)
28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)
30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)
31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)
32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)
33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)
34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)
35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)
36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)
37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)
39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).
42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)
There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.
In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'
* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'
(c) Moshe Shulman, 2000
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Granny Magda, posted 10-04-2012 10:57 AM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 07-29-2013 2:08 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 271 of 304 (703737)
07-29-2013 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Phat
07-29-2013 2:08 AM


The truth must and will come out
What are you accomplishing here, really? Are you helping anyone get closer to God? (I didn't think so.) Shame.
Bs'd
So you think it is better to let people run after a false idolatrous religion, without showing them the truth??
When they get rid of their idol worship, then they are already a step closer to God.
Then they can start worshipping the one and only true God.
Here is who is that one true God:
Who is the God of Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
Christianity is very confused about this. A confusion also caused by bad Bible translations. In almost all translations the four lettered name of God, Y-H-W-H, which appears in the Hebrew Bible almost 7000 times, is not mentioned, but replaced by "the LORD".
But here are some Biblical texts which point out WHO is the God of Israel. In these verses the letters of the name of God are written, like in the original Hebrew.
Exodus 29:46 They will know that I am Y-H-W-H their God, who brought them out of Egypt so that I might dwell among them. I am Y-H-W-H their God.
Numbers 15:41 I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt to be your God. I am Y-H-W-H your God.
Deuteronomy 10:20-21 Fear Y-H-W-H your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. He is your praise; he is your God, who performed for you those great and awesome wonders you saw with your own eyes.
Joshua 24:18 We too will serve Y-H-W-H , because he is our God.
II Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides Y-H-W-H ?
I Chronicles 16:14 He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth
II Chronicles 13:10 As for us, Y-H-W-H is our God, and we have not forsaken him
Psalm 31:14 But I trust in you, O Y-H-W-H; I say, "You are my God.
Psalm 89:6 For who in the skies above can compare with Y-H-W-H? Who is like Y-H-W-H among the heavenly beings?
Psalm 91:2 I will say of Y-H-W-H , "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.
Psalm 100:3 Know that Y-H-W-H is God. It is he who made us.
Psalm 105:7 He is Y-H-W-H our God; his judgments are in all the earth;
Psalm 118:27 Y-H-W-H is God, and he has made his light shine upon us.
Psalm 140:6 O Y-H-W-H, I say to you, "You are my God
Isaiah25:1 O Y-H-W-H, you are my God.
Isaiah41:13 For I am Y-H-W-H , your God;
Isaiah43:3 For I am Y-H-W-H , your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
Isaiah 51:15 For I am Y-H-W-H your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar- Y-H-W-H Almighty is his name
Jeremiah 3:22-23 Yes, we will come to you, for you are Y-H-W-H our God
Jeremiah 10:10 But Y-H-W-H is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King.;
Jeremiah 31:18 Restore me, and I will return, because you are Y-H-W-H my God.
Habakkuk 1:12 O Y-H-W-H, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die.

And is there, except for this God Y-H-W-H, any other god?

Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that Y-H-W-H is God; besides him there is no other.
Deuteronomy 4:39 Acknowledge and take to heart this day that Y-H-W-H is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.
II Samuel 7:22 How great you are, O Sovereign Y-H-W-H! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
I Kings 8:60 so that all the peoples of the earth may know that Y-H-W-H is God and that there is no other.
I Chronicles 17:20 There is no one like you, OY-H-W-H, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears.
II Chronicles 6:14 OY-H-W-H, God of Israel, there is no God like you in heaven or on earth.
Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.
Isaiah 45:21-23 You are my witnesses," declares Y-H-W-H, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Isaiah 45:5-6 I am Y-H-W-H , and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me."
Isaiah 45:21-23 Declare what is to be, present it- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, Y-H-W-H? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;

Exodus 20:1-3 And God spoke all these words: "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 07-29-2013 2:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 4:45 PM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 273 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 4:49 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 274 of 304 (704117)
08-04-2013 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by kofh2u
07-29-2013 4:49 PM


Re: The truth must and will come out
Bs'd
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.
But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?
Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.
Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?
But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".
BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."
But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".
No trinity.
Another example of a pronoun:
Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.
As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.
Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.
So no three persons in God.
Another one:
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Clear what? It doesn't say: This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.
No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.
Another one:
Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;
Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.
I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.
And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by kofh2u, posted 07-29-2013 4:49 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by kofh2u, posted 08-05-2013 2:05 AM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 277 by Archangel, posted 08-05-2013 4:44 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 279 of 304 (704206)
08-06-2013 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Archangel
08-05-2013 4:44 PM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
Your post is very interesting Ellyahu in that it reveals the misunderstanding many jews have regarding the Trinity/3 in one. You see, just as G-D is 3 in one so are we who are made in His image yet we don’t refer to ourselves in the plural, do we? So neither does our Creator who made us in His image. But rest assured that Y-H-W-H is a Trinity just as we are.
The trinity of G-D is one of the great mysteries that we with our finite minds struggle with but just as the bible is G-D’s word, we accept these things on faith because our creator is trustworthy and reliable.
Bs'd
Why accept a "mystery" on faith? As the rabbi's say: "When they say "mystery", they mean "idolatry"."
The Bible teaches that God is one.
The Bible nowhwere teaches that God is three or three in one.
One is not the same as three or three in one.
Therefore, God is not a trinity.

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד


Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is
ONE.
And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9
Y-H-W-H, the one and only God who is one.
Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no JC, no David Koresh; NOBODY.
Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPER.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Archangel, posted 08-05-2013 4:44 PM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 282 of 304 (704218)
08-06-2013 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
04-15-2012 12:18 AM


There are no 100 and no 300 messianic prophecies. Doesn't exist.
Bs'd
The simple facts are: There are no 100 and no 300 messianic prophecies. Doesn't exist.
JC obviously did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies.
So what the Christians do, is ripping random Tanach texts out of context, texts which have no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and present them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".
Examples how the NT does that can be seen here: NT prophecies - MountZion
Examples how the Christians do that, can be found here: 324x0 - MountZion
But this is of course lying and cheating.
When you treat the text like that, then you can turn anybody you want into the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:
A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery
My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.
1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)
2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)
3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)
4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)
5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)
6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)
7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)
9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)
11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)
12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)
13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)
14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)
16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)
17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)
18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)
19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)
20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)
21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)
23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)
24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)
25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)
26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)
27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)
28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)
30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)
31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)
32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)
33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)
34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)
35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)
36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)
37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)
39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).
42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)
There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.
In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'
* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'
(c) Moshe Shulman, 2000
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 04-15-2012 12:18 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 3:53 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 291 by GDR, posted 08-06-2013 7:21 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 283 of 304 (704219)
08-06-2013 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by Archangel
08-06-2013 4:46 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
Bs'd
Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.
But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?
Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.
Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?
But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".
BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."
But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".
No trinity.
Another example of a pronoun:
Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are Y-H-W-H.
As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.
Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.
So no three persons in God.
Another one:
Isaiah 44:6 This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Clear what? It doesn't say: This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.
No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.
Another one:
Joel 2:27 Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;
Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.
I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.
And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Archangel has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 284 of 304 (704221)
08-06-2013 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Archangel
08-06-2013 4:46 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
Elliyahu, you are very good at finding the passages that point to God being one in order to show that there is only "one" G-D
Bs'd
You really don't get it huh?
I bring the passages that God is ONE not in order to show that there is one God, but in order to show that GOD IS ONE!!!
Can you understand the difference between "one God" and "God is one"?
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Archangel has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 285 of 304 (704222)
08-06-2013 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Archangel
08-06-2013 4:46 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
There Is A Plural Noun Used With A Singular Verb
A hint of the doctrine of the Trinity can be found in the first verse of the Bible.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1).
The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim is a plural noun but it is used here with a singular verb bara. In the remainder of the Old Testament, when Elohim speaks of the true God, it is always used with a singular verb. The conclusion to be drawn is that in some sense God is both singular and plural. The doctrine of the Trinity states this — within the nature of the one God there are three eternal persons.
Bs'd
The word "elohiem" is always singular, unless the context clearly shows it to be plural.
Here is a Christian file on the word "elohiem":
Elohim and Echad
http://www.torahofmessiah.com/elohim.html
A typical example of the many word games Trinitarians and others use as they endeavor to promote their false god.
Adapted from The Journal of Hebraic Renewal, which reprinted it from Focus on the Kingdom magazine.
To support the commonly held teaching that God is a plural entity consisting of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit [1], Messianics that follow the primary Traditional Christian doctrines from which they came, as well as Traditional Christians, themselves, will appeal to two Hebrew words: Elohim (eloheem) and echad (echad, "ch" as in the Scottish "loch"). They assert that the Hebrew word, Elohim, indicates that God is a plural entity because it is the plural form of the word for God and is the title most often used for the God of Israel. Echad - used in the well-known "shema" of Deuteronomy 6:4 instructing Israel that their God is "one" - is asserted by them to show the plurality of God because, they say echad in the Hebrew actually indicates a compound, rather than an absolute, unity; that is, rather than a "simple" one, they say echad indicates a unity of more than one.
Each claim will now be examined.
Elohim
Elohim is the plural form of Eloah and appears closely related to El, which usually means "god", "God", or "mighty one". But IF we were right to translate Elohim as a plural word, the Bible would teach us that in the beginning, "Gods" created the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Bible would then support the idea that more than one God created the universe, spoke to Abraham, delivered Israel from bondage and continued dealing with them, etc., since Elohim is used throughout the Tanakh ("Old" Testament) as Israel's God(s). But virtually no Christian - Messianic or otherwise - would profess that there is more than one God.
So, how do we resolve this dilemma? And why do all the translations translate Elohim simply as "God" and not "Gods" when it refers to the true God?
In Biblical Hebrew, a noun that is plural in form is not necessarily plural in meaning - a fact most Messianic leaders realize, yet seem to ignore. For instance, the Hebrew words chayim (chayeem, "life") [2] and panim (paneem, "face", "presence", "countenance") [3] are plural in form, but almost always singular in meaning. Another word, adon, "lord", "master", [4] is often plural in form. In its plural form it is sometimes used of a single person - Abraham (Gen. 24:9-10), Joseph (Gen. 42:30,33), the king of Egypt (Gen. 40:1) and an anonymous "fierce king" under whose rule the Egyptians were prophesied to come (Isa. 19:4, NRSV). There are instances of other plural Hebrew words employed in the Hebrew Bible with singular meaning.
Equally striking is the fact that the same term, elohim, is used of the individual false gods of Israel's surrounding nations. Elohim is used of Dagon, the god of the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:7); of Chemosh, the god of Ammon and Moab (Jud. 11:24; 1 Kings 11:33); of Ashtarte (or Ashtoreth), the god(dess) of the Sidonians (1 Kings 11:33); of Milcom, another god of the Ammorites (1 Kings 11:33). In Smith's Bible Dictionary (NISBE) no plurality in any one of these gods is even hinted at. Additionally, in Ezra's prayer in Nehemiah 9:18, elohim is used to refer to the single golden calf made by Israel in the wilderness.
Elohim is also used of single human figures. Moses in both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 and the Messianic king in Psalms 45:6 (verse 7 in the Hebrew Bible) are each referred to as elohim [5].
What all this indicates is that in Biblical Hebrew, plural nouns in general and Elohim in particular do not always have plural meanings. In the case of the word Elohim, in fact, it would appear as though we should almost always understand it as singular in meaning unless the context indicates that "gods" are referred to.
Hebrew scholars are entirely familiar with these facts (as are Christianized Messianic leaders). The expressions "plural of majesty" or "plural of rank" or "intensive plural" are sometimes used to describe this phenomenon of language (not just Hebrew) where the form of a word can be plural but its meaning is singular. The idea is that the plural stresses or exalts the importance of the person referred to. The following is a quotation regarding Elohim from the NISBE, in their article on "God, Names of":
The use of the plural form with singular meaning is not unique to Israel. Similar forms occur in pre-Israelite Babylonian and Canaanite texts in which a worshiper wishes to exalt a particular god above others. This form has been called the plural of majesty or the intensive plural because it implies that all the fullness of deity is concentrated in the one god. Elohim's being the most common word for God in the Tanakh thus conveys this idea. (Vol. 2, p. 505).
Smith's Bible Dictionary has this to say on the same subject in their article entitled "God":
The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God (p. 220).
But by no means is YHWH ever referred to by plural forms. In fact, whenever the people of God speak of Him in the Hebrew Bible using a pronoun, they ALWAYS employ the singular form. Whether it is the third person (He, Him, His) or the second person (You, Your, Thou, Thy) this is the case. The people of God understood their God to be a single Individual. [6]
Nor is He only referred to in the plural when "God" is the translated word. Two forms referred to above, El and Eloah used in the Tanakh to refer to the true God, are both singular in form. [7] When an Aramaic word for God, Elah, is used, it too appears to be always in its singular form when referring to the true God. [8]
The form of the verb used in Hebrew when Elohim the true God is the subject is also instructive. It is virtually always singular in form throughout the Tanakh. In Genesis 1, for example - where the reader is first introduced to Elohim the Creator - the Hebrew verb form is always in the third masculine singular whenever [9] we read that "Elohim created" or "Elohim said" or "Elohim made", etc. [10]
Finally, the Septuagint (known as "LXX"), the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (probably translated in the third and second century B.C.E.) ALWAYS translated the Hebrew word for God in the singular (Gr. theos). The LXX version of the Old Testament is often cited in the New Testament instead of the Hebrew. [11]
Therefore - returning to the original argument (which usually includes the "Let us..." statement in Gen. 1:26) - if God must be regarded as a plural entity because He is referred to in a plural form, why then must He not be regarded as a singular entity since He is referred to in singular forms? Are not all these statements Holy Scripture? We could be left with a contradiction were it not for the many examples of plural forms with singular meanings in Hebrew, including the concept of "plural of majesty". The plural of majesty clarifies the usage of the plural form for the true God in the Tanakh. He is described by thousands and thousands of singular verbs and pronouns. Language has no more definite way of telling us that God is ONE Person, the Father of Yeshua - but definitely NOT Yeshua!
As a final proof, note the Messianic 22nd Psalm. I will quote from only a portion of this Psalm which, when read using common sense, CLEARLY shows that Yeshua (the prophetic focus of this Psalm) refers to God (Elohim and El) as HIS God (Elohim). I will include in parenthesis the Hebrew word translated as "God."
Psalm 22:1,2,10
1 My God (El), my God (El), why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God (Elohim), I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. ... 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God (El) from my mother's belly.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.
This single quote from Psalms - and there are other Messianic verses which present the same proof - PROVES that Yeshua is NOT God (Elohim), since he (Yeshua) refers to the ONE, True God as HIS Elohim! Verse 10 also proves how Yeshua worshipped the same God we should worship from his birth! Thus, since Yeshua very clearly referred to the God HE WORSHIPPED as Elohim, the term Elohim cannot possibly refer to Yeshua in the sense of making him God!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Archangel has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 286 of 304 (704224)
08-06-2013 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Archangel
08-06-2013 4:46 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
The Clearest Old Testament Statement
There is one statement in the Old Testament that gives a fairly clear indication of the Trinity.
Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. "And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Isaiah 48:16,17).
In verse sixteen, God the Son is speaking. He identifies the Father [the Sovereign Lord] and His Spirit as having sent Him. In the next verse, the Son is clearly spoken of as the Lord. Consequently these verses identify three distinct Persons who are God without denying the fact there is only one God.
Bs'd
>> Who are the three divine personalities Isaiah 48:11-18 (Yeshaiah Hanavi)
speaks about? "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I
am the first and I am the last. (Only God is eternal.) My own hand laid the
foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens (the
Creator is speaking)-, . . . And now the Sovereign Lord (one divine
personality) has sent me (the speaker is eternal and the Creator, and
therefore a second divine personality), with his Spirit (a third divine
personality).
## The writer here conveniently leaves out the key passage that explains this verse, he gives there '' Here is the whole passage: "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I
am the first and I am the last. My own hand laid the
foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens,Assemble all of you and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD (in the Hebrew Y-H-W-H) loves him, he shall perform his purpose on Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I have spoken and called him, I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way. Draw near to me, hear this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret from the time it came o be I have been there. And now my lord (adoni) LORD (Y-H-W-H) has sent me with his Spirit. Thus says the LORD (Y-H-W-H) your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel,
Here is my comment:
"Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I
am the first and I am the last. My own hand laid the
foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens, [this is God speaking] Assemble all of you and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD (in the Hebrew Y-H-W-H) loves him, he [here is the part left out by the other guy. Here is spoken ABOUT God, in the third person, that means that here already is not God speaking, but somebody else (Isaiah) ABOUT God] shall perform his purpose on Babylon, and His [again third person] arm shall be against the Chaldeans. I, even I have spoken and called him, I have brought him, and he will prosper in his way. Draw near to me, [also this is Isaiah speaking; a fysical human being can not draw near to God] hear this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret from the time it came to be [this speaks about the decree against Sancherib] I have been there. And now my lord (adoni) LORD (Y-H-W-H) has sent me [the me is Isaiah] with his Spirit. [the spirit of God is the power of God, that makes Isaiah a prophet. It is not a separate God] Thus says the LORD (Y-H-W-H) [again in the third person, not God is speaking here but Isaiah] your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel,
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Archangel has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 287 of 304 (704225)
08-06-2013 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Archangel
08-06-2013 4:46 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
In the Second Psalm we read.
I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill. I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you (Psalm 2:6,7)
Later, in that same Psalm, it says.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in him (Psalm 2:12)
Bs'd
Psalm 2 is speaking about king David. King David is the anointed one ( (messiah means 'anointed one'), see I Samuel 16:12-13. Here the prophet Samuel anointed him, something that never happened to Jesus, he was never anointed by a prophet, but only by a sinful woman, something that means nothing of course.
"I have set my king upon Zion, my holy hill." King David reigned from Zion, he lived there and is buried there, but to Jesus nothing of this applies, he was never a king, and he never ruled from mount Zion.
"He said to me; You are My son, today have I begotten you." This does not mean that king David was a physical son of God. The term son of God is used for people or angels who are especially beloved or favored by God, as we can see in Genesis 6:4, Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7, and Psalm 82:6, 89:6, and many other verses. Verse 8: "Ask of me and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potters vessel." All this applies to King David, God gave him victory over all his adversaries, but nothing of this applies to Jesus. The claim that Jesus is going to do this after his second coming is a worthless claim because everybody can make a claim like that. Therefore it is absurd to say that this applies to Jesus in stead of King David.
setstats
Another Christian claim is that the Psalm says: "Kiss the son, or he will be angry", but this is a mistranslation. The word translated with "son" is "bar". And that means in Hebrew "pure", and not "son". Only in Aramaic does it mean son, but not in Hebrew. And the Psalms are written in Hebrew, therefore it doesn't make sense to translate this word as if it is Aramaic.
Therefore it says: "Worship in purity".
Nowhere in the Psalms is the word "bar" used for "son" or "heir".It is used for "pure", see Psalm 24:4; "The one who has clean hands and a PURE heart".
And Psalm 19:8; "the commandment of Y-H-W-H is PURE, enlightening the eyes."
And Psalm 73:1 "Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are PURE in heart."
There is not a single example in the Psalms where the word "bar" is used as "son".
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Archangel has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 288 of 304 (704227)
08-06-2013 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Archangel
08-06-2013 4:46 AM


Re: The truth must and will come out: GOD IS ONE!!
In the Book of Proverbs it says.
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know! (Proverbs 30:4).
Bs'd
I know!
"Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what Y-H-W-H says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, Let my son go, so he may worship me. But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’
Ex 4
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 4:46 AM Archangel has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 296 of 304 (704250)
08-06-2013 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Archangel
08-06-2013 3:53 PM


Re: There are no 100 and no 300 messianic prophecies. Doesn't exist.
That you can read those OT prophetic passages and not recognize Jesus in them speaks volumes regarding the severity of your spiritual blindness .
Bs'd
The fact you think that they are prophecies, speaks volumes regarding the severity of your spiritual blindness.
Ripping Tanach texts which have no bearing whatsoever on the messiah out of context, and then presenting them as "messianic prophecies", is lying and cheating.
Tell me this my spiritually blind friend, the Messiah is prophesied to come and save the Jews throughout the Old Testament, I say He came first 2000 years ago, and is preparing to return for His children and to judge this world at the end of this Age; when, if ever do you see Messiah coming for the first time if you reject Jesus Christ as Messiah even though He Himself said that is who He IS?
All through history there were many MANY people who claimed to be God or the messiah.
They usually end up in a mental asylum. JC was not so lucky.
Remember Elliyahu, Jesus Christ was either a LIAR, a LUNATIC or the LORD. All of the available historical evidence supports Him being the Lord and all of your childish denials and legalistic interpretations of scripture will NEVER change that FACT.
JC did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. All your denials and messianic interpretations of texts which have obviously no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, will NEVER change that fact.
And whether or not JC was a lunatic; it is for us now, 2000 years later, hard to asess the mental state of JC. His family, that lived with him, were in a much better position to do that. Let's see what they say about it: "20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family\[b\] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, He is out of his mind."
Mark 3
Again, you have my sorrow and my sympathy for your rejection of Messiah, I will pray that the scales are removed from your eyes before its too late for you.
He wasn't the messiah, because he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.
He was also a false prophet.
And it also strikes me as odd, that somebody who cannot count to two, who thinks that a "God the Father" and a "god the son", that that is only one God, that somebody like that comes to tell me that I am blinded.
But don't worry, there comes a time that God will remove the veil from the goyiem, and then you too will be able to count to two again:
"On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;"
Isaiah 7
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Archangel, posted 08-06-2013 3:53 PM Archangel has not replied

  
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