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Author Topic:   Is God one or three?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 87 (704214)
08-06-2013 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Eliyahu
08-06-2013 12:28 AM


The Bible is very often wrong
The Bible is the teachings of men and is very often wrong, contradictory as well as the fact that there is no such thing as "The Bible" anyway.
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 62 of 87 (704226)
08-06-2013 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Eliyahu
08-04-2013 9:53 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
Eliyahu writes:
Be that as it may, that still doesn't change the fact that the fact that God is one is not a theory, but a straightforward Biblical teaching.
It is a fact that the teaching exists. It is not a fact that the teaching is true.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 87 (704335)
08-08-2013 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Eliyahu
08-06-2013 12:46 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
The Bible teaches that GOD IS ONE. It doesn't state what is one, therefore God is one in every aspect. Simply plain ONE.
And therefore not three, or three in one.
Your therefore is just your own interpretation, and it doesn't follow.
Three in one is still one. You're just assuming that when it says that god is one that it is saying that god is one part.
Really, though, it has more to do with the ancient hebrews dealing with a monaltry. Monolatry - Wikipedia
It doesn't have anything to do with the trinity.
And saying God is one part is just putting unnecessary limits on God. Nothing is just one part. Everything is made up of multiple parts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Eliyahu, posted 08-06-2013 12:46 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Eliyahu, posted 08-16-2013 1:51 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 87 (704336)
08-08-2013 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Eliyahu
08-06-2013 12:28 AM


Re: One is monotheism. Three is polytheism.
So the whole Bible teaches that God is one, NOWHERE in the Bible is anything to be found that says that God is three, and your reaction is: "The Bible is wrong"??
Well, I guess that is one way out of the problems, just throw the whole Bible overboard and follow the teachings of men.
Well of course. I mean, have you read the Old Testament? That god was a jerk. Good thing he got replaced.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


(1)
Message 65 of 87 (704361)
08-08-2013 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by New Cat's Eye
08-08-2013 3:04 PM


Re: One is monotheism. Three is polytheism.
Nah , he just mellowed out. It might have been the birth of his son.

This message is a reply to:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 66 of 87 (704746)
08-16-2013 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by New Cat's Eye
08-08-2013 3:04 PM


Re: One is monotheism. Three is polytheism.
Well of course. I mean, have you read the Old Testament? That god was a jerk. Good thing he got replaced.
Bs'd
So you admit that you don't believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Israel.
You believe in a man-god, that you have made for yourself.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 67 of 87 (704747)
08-16-2013 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by New Cat's Eye
08-08-2013 3:03 PM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
Three in one is still one.
Bs'd
God is either one or He is three. Not both at the same time.
And saying God is one part is just putting unnecessary limits on God. Nothing is just one part. Everything is made up of multiple parts.
Except for God, He is ONE.
.
.
In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-08-2013 3:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 69 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-19-2013 11:16 AM Eliyahu has not replied
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 Message 78 by Eliyahu, posted 10-17-2013 12:01 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 68 of 87 (704807)
08-18-2013 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Eliyahu
08-16-2013 1:51 AM


YHWH Alone
Deuteronomy 6:4 isn't necessarily dealing with God's type of existence. The point is that YHWH is their God and only YHWH is their God, not that he is the only god. It deals with which god they are to obey.
Deut 6:5 Love the LORD (YHWH) your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Deut 6:13 Fear the LORD (YHWH) your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name.
Deut 6:14 Do not follow other gods, the gods of the peoples around you;
Does the Shema (Deut 6:4) Prove There are No Other gods?
International Standard Version
"Listen, Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 87 (704857)
08-19-2013 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Eliyahu
08-16-2013 1:51 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
God is either one or He is three. Not both at the same time.
Three in one is still one. You're just assuming that when it says that god is one that it is saying that god is one part.
Really, though, it has more to do with the ancient hebrews dealing with a monaltry. Monolatry - Wikipedia
It doesn't have anything to do with the trinity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Eliyahu, posted 08-16-2013 1:51 AM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by arachnophilia, posted 08-19-2013 2:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 70 of 87 (704864)
08-19-2013 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Eliyahu
08-16-2013 1:51 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE!!!
Eliyahu writes:
Except for God, He is ONE.
You remind me of Jeb Bush: "George is ahead. Stop counting!"

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 71 of 87 (704865)
08-19-2013 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by New Cat's Eye
07-29-2013 10:18 AM


Catholic Scientist writes:
And yet in Genesis, God talks about thing being made "in OUR image" and "they will be like one of US"
that's probably nothing more than a quirk of the language. god seems to speak of himself in plural, but act in the singular.
in this verse, we have:
quote:
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, נַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ;
and god said [singular], "let us make [plural] man in our image [plural], after our likeness [plural]..."
but in the next,
quote:
וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם בְּצַלְמוֹ
and god made [singular] the man in his [singular] image...
is god plural, or is go just speaking in plural? he does this again in genesis 11:7, speaking of himself in plural, but then acting in the singular.
i do not think there is anything mystical here, nor do i think this is any indication of the trinity. this particular case, in genesis 1, is written by P, who is about the furthest from polytheism of any of the authors in the torah. this account in particular seems to have been written largely for the express purpose of revising a more polytheistic account, probably originally told by J, that more closely mirrored the original enuma elish mythology. in P's version of events, the identity of elohim as yahweh is so assumed it's not even worth mentioning (as in P's mind, there could be no other god), and this god is responsible for everything. P even goes to great lengths to specifically de-mythologize entities that would have been divine in J's story, like leviathan, who only gets a passing mention in verse 21, and entities that would have been gods in other mythologies, like the sun. note that he doesn't even use the word "sun" because shemesh (the hebrew word for "sun") is directly linked etymologically to the akkadian sun god, shamash. yet, P is clear that his god created the sun, and that this sun is not another god.
in short, i think this is at best an artifact of the language, and not some indication of either latent polytheism, or of a trinitarian theology.
There's also this part in Matthew:
Matt 3: 16-17 (NIV):
quote:
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.
Here we have Jesus, the Spirit of God, and God the Father all at the same place at the same time.
as you mention, there isn't really proof of the trinity in the bible, and that's partly because it's an idea that developed to interpret the bible. and it developed rather slowly; there are indications of an almost gnostic mystery sense of the divinity of christ in john's gospel. but note that, here in matthew, the "spirit of god" should not necessarily be understood as distinct from simply god himself; it is just his earthly presence, potentially similar to the presence of god in the holy of holies in the sanctuary/temple.
matthew does not seem to maintain that christ is divine in the same way that john does. and actually, i kind of suspect that matthew means to argue, satirically, that jesus is not in any way the messiah. but that's a topic for another thread.

אָרַח

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 72 of 87 (704866)
08-19-2013 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by New Cat's Eye
08-19-2013 11:16 AM


yahweh + hadad + el = one
Catholic Scientist writes:
Really, though, it has more to do with the ancient hebrews dealing with a monaltry. Monolatry - Wikipedia
yes and no. the history of ancient israelite monotheism is a long and troubled one.
in a broader perspective on the matter, they were largely adapting canaanite and akkadian/sumerian mythologies to their own regional flavor, and in doing so, yahweh was a conflation of several different gods, combined in several different ways.
for instance, he seems to have some aspects of the canaanite yahweh, which was a god of war (see the exodus/joshua narratives), some aspects of the storm god baal hadad (pretty much the entire moshe at horeb/sinai narratives), and some aspects the grander parent god el (and his council of sons, the elohim). much of the ancient israelite emphasis on "one god" seems to have been an effort to collapse some of these regional henotheistic gods into a single, universal yahweh. which is probably why you get stories like elijah at carmel, where "baal" doesn't respond to prayer, because there is no baal -- baal is actually a corruption of yahweh in their minds.
the problem is that some of these cults seem to have been especially persuasive. asherah (probably a conflation of inana/ishtar and anath and similar war/fertility goddesses) was said to be yahweh's consort, and her pillars (asherim) were placed next to yahweh's altars, in the same way that astarte's pillars were placed next to baal hadad's altars in canaan. ancient judaism seems to have especially abhorred the fertility rituals, which seemed to have involved sex and possibly even child sacrifice, in remembrance of baal hadad's battle with mot (death), and anath's resurrection of hadad and his return to the divine mountain. what's interesting to me, btw, is how closely the christian passion mirrors the canaanite baal cycle: these ideas seem to have been reincorporated in the religion, and you get the idea of "another" aspect of god because of the way the narrative seeped back in.
Edited by arachnophilia, : i accidentally a word

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-19-2013 11:16 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 73 of 87 (704867)
08-19-2013 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
08-04-2013 8:24 AM


Re: GOD IS ONE! But there are Three who are that One
Thugpreacha writes:
The Jehovahs Witnesses are a cult. Period.
having talked to several, they are somewhat better at reading the bible for what it says than your average christian. call that "legalism" if you'd like, but i'd like to call it reading comprehension. they do not believe in the trinity, because the bible does not teach about a trinity.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 87 (704873)
08-19-2013 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by arachnophilia
08-19-2013 2:45 PM


Re: yahweh + hadad + el = one
Um, I don't know what to say. I think you're right.
So... thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by arachnophilia, posted 08-19-2013 2:45 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by arachnophilia, posted 08-19-2013 4:49 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 75 of 87 (704874)
08-19-2013 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by New Cat's Eye
08-19-2013 4:41 PM


Re: yahweh + hadad + el = one
there's an interesting idea that the gods (plural) of abraham, isaac, and jacob were different gods, and that yahweh himself was a fourth god; that the insistence E places on yahweh being the same god was written to combat an earlier polytheism, in a slightly different way that J attributes everything to yahweh.
i don't know what exactly to make of that idea, just yet.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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