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Author Topic:   Which animals would populate the earth if the ark was real?
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 136 of 991 (705216)
08-24-2013 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2013 9:38 AM


... invoke magic as explanation...
Why not invoke magic? Especially when the stories imply it?
Yeah, one must postulate things like giving the creator God the power to do anything he wishes as an attribute not exactly mentioned anywhere in the Bible.
Or, one can understand the story as an allegory which Benito did...
This same approach found favor with the Jewish Kabbalahists:
Both of these more ancient criticisms of the story lead us to consider the ark as carrying the animals o side man's head:
Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2013 9:38 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-25-2013 7:44 PM kofh2u has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 137 of 991 (705230)
08-25-2013 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
08-23-2013 11:47 AM


You're setting the bar mighty low. I suppose if one human couple survived that would be a success too?
In comparison to the extinction of the human race, I guess the survival of the human race would be a success story.
I agree that God's solution to the sin problem was more of a problem than a solution.
It's a nice story for kids but it doesn't bear much (any) scrutiny.
It was thought that Troy was a myth. And some even doubted bible history, thinking the Jewish conquest was a myth. And the Jewish exile in Egypt was a myth. The spread of early architecture from Turkey to Sumeria to Babylon is found in archaeology, matching the bible's version of the spread of mankind.
With a book so clearly describing origins before modern archaeology discovers these origins, its possible the bible is literally accurate about other stories as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 08-23-2013 11:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2013 4:56 AM mindspawn has replied
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 Message 143 by ringo, posted 08-25-2013 2:57 PM mindspawn has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 138 of 991 (705231)
08-25-2013 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by mindspawn
08-25-2013 4:35 AM


quote:
It was thought that Troy was a myth
I think you're confusing myth and legend.
quote:
And some even doubted bible history, thinking the Jewish conquest was a myth. And the Jewish exile in Egypt was a myth.
I hate to break it to you, but the Jewish captivity in Egypt - and the post-Exodus Conquest - do appear to be pretty much legendary, with little basis in history, as revealed by archaeology.
quote:
The spread of early architecture from Turkey to Sumeria to Babylon is found in archaeology, matching the bible's version of the spread of mankind.
Architecture, possibly, but there were people already in the lands the ideas spread to...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 4:35 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 5:37 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 142 by kofh2u, posted 08-25-2013 6:10 AM PaulK has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 139 of 991 (705232)
08-25-2013 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by New Cat's Eye
08-23-2013 9:38 AM


The animals came to Noah all by themselves, there's no reason to think that God was not involved in "pushing" them there.
And when we get to "releasing" the animals:
quote:
Gen 8:20 (NIV)
All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birdseverything that moves on landcame out of the ark, one kind after another.
Again, the animals just walked off the ark on their own one after another. Noah didn't have to "do" anything. And there's no reason to think that God was not involved in controlling them at this point either.
Fair enough. I don't see that the releasing necessarily involved supernatural intervention, the wording isn't clear enough to be sure. Verse 16 implies Noah brings them out the ark, rather than supernatural releasing:
"Go out of the ship, you, and your wife, and your sons, and your sons' wives with you. Bring forth with you every living thing that is with you of all flesh"
But whether its God himself controlling the releasing, or Noah walking them off the ark in a controlled fashion, or even just a wild melee of animal slaughter we do not have enough information about the animals on the ark to say this or that would definitely have occurred.
We just do not know the full extent of species that would have existed on the ark, or their relative proportions of carnivore to herbivore. We do not know which had 14 representatives and which only had two. We do not know how many herbivores have evolved into carnivores since the ark, maybe the ark lacked large numbers of carnivores. Noah didn't discharge the animals as soon as the mountaintops appeared out the water, but waited 150 days for the water to recede, which is enough time for vegetation to have gained a general foothold in those areas that dried first. In wet soil 5 months is more than enough for fresh vegetation to be well established.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-23-2013 9:38 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-25-2013 7:48 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 140 of 991 (705233)
08-25-2013 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by PaulK
08-25-2013 4:56 AM


I think you're confusing myth and legend.
Not at all. Many thought Troy was a myth, and until recently the story was seen as part of Ancient Greek mythology, not Ancient Greek history.
I hate to break it to you, but the Jewish captivity in Egypt - and the post-Exodus Conquest - do appear to be pretty much legendary, with little basis in history, as revealed by archaeology.
Do you know that standard historical timelines are based on early archaeologist's attempts to prove the bible from Egyptian history. The historian Champollion identified the Egyptian Pharoah Shoshenk I with the biblical pharoah Shishak. In their excitement of their erroneous "proof" of the bible, these early archaeologists failed to notice that Shoshenk I attacked the towns of Israel and never attacked Judah as the bilbical Shishak did. So one of the major pillars of our standard historical timelines is in fact false.
David Rohl, in his book A Test of Time identifies the Pharaoh Ramesses with the biblical Shishak, and in this way re-creates the timelines of history, showing that in fact the exodus and conquest have a strong archaeological backing. A large Semite population existed in Egypt, and there are signs that their residential area in Egypt was rapidly vacated. Soon after that many cities in the Israel area were attacked and destroyed, including the famous Jericho.
Architecture, possibly, but there were people already in the lands the ideas spread to...
Can you show proof thereof?
Civilization , including the earliest temples, is known to have commenced in Turkey, then Sumeria, then Babylon, then elsewhere, just as described by the bible. Some of the earliest cities described in the bible have been recently confirmed as the earliest civilizations of known history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2013 4:56 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2013 3:43 PM mindspawn has replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


(1)
Message 141 of 991 (705236)
08-25-2013 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by mindspawn
08-25-2013 4:35 AM


... before the Big Bang Theory...
With a book so clearly describing origins before modern archaeology discovers these origins, its possible the bible is literally accurate about other stories as well.
I agree, but would expand what you said to read ..."before modern times."
Genesis is becoming confirmed verse by verse as evidence appears that was not available to the ancient readers.
The Big Bang was an In the beginning moment when Time started ticking to the beat of 13.5 Billion years later.
And, Biology agrees that the Plant Kingdom did appear before the Animal Kingdom, just as Genesis says.
Statement like Gen 1:9 ..."and all the were collected together into one place" sounded ridiculous even in 1920, just before Pangea was discovered.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 4:35 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 142 of 991 (705237)
08-25-2013 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by PaulK
08-25-2013 4:56 AM


... genetics and archeology suppport the Exodus
I hate to break it to you, but the Jewish captivity in Egypt - and the post-Exodus Conquest - do appear to be pretty much legendary, with little basis in history, as revealed by archaeology.
Get up to date on this.
Genetic research has given support to the claim in Exodus, that all Jewish priest were related to one man who lived 3362 years ago.
That would be consistent with the range of the claims for Aaron, whose sons were appointed as the priesthood.
A second largely un-discussed archeological discovery of monotheism appearing in Egypt 3362 years ago coincides with the genetic evidence mentioned above.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 143 of 991 (705252)
08-25-2013 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by mindspawn
08-25-2013 4:35 AM


mindspawn writes:
With a book so clearly describing origins before modern archaeology discovers these origins, its possible the bible is literally accurate about other stories as well.
Nobody discounts the possibility before the evidence is in. The Troy legend was possible and turned out to be true. A lot of other legends are possible but have not been confirmed or have actually been refuted. While the spread of civilization may be depicted with some accuracy in the Bible, the spread of animal life ceretainly is not. For example, where is the evidence of marsupials wandering from Ararat to Australia?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 4:35 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 5:54 PM ringo has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 144 of 991 (705261)
08-25-2013 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by mindspawn
08-25-2013 5:37 AM


quote:
Not at all. Many thought Troy was a myth, and until recently the story was seen as part of Ancient Greek mythology, not Ancient Greek history.
I'd like to see some evidence for this claim. Mount Olympus figures very strongly in Greek Mythology, but there is no doubt that the mountain is real. Likewise it is entirely possible for the story of the Trojan war to appear in a book of mythology without Troy itself being considered a myth rather than a legend.
quote:
Do you know that standard historical timelines are based on early archaeologist's attempts to prove the bible from Egyptian history.
That's not exactly true at this point in time. There is a lot of other data used to construct the timeline.
quote:
The historian Champollion identified the Egyptian Pharoah Shoshenk I with the biblical pharoah Shishak. In their excitement of their erroneous "proof" of the bible, these early archaeologists failed to notice that Shoshenk I attacked the towns of Israel and never attacked Judah as the bilbical Shishak did. So one of the major pillars of our standard historical timelines is in fact false.
I think that you are wrong about this. A stela found at Megiddo confirms that Shoshenq took the city.
quote:
David Rohl, in his book A Test of Time identifies the Pharaoh Ramesses with the biblical Shishak, and in this way re-creates the timelines of history, showing that in fact the exodus and conquest have a strong archaeological backing. A large Semite population existed in Egypt, and there are signs that their residential area in Egypt was rapidly vacated. Soon after that many cities in the Israel area were attacked and destroyed, including the famous Jericho.
David Rohl makes the same mistake that the early Biblical Archaeologists made. His timeline doesn't work - the Assyrian chronology in particular is a problem.
quote:
Can you show proof thereof?
Civilization , including the earliest temples, is known to have commenced in Turkey, then Sumeria, then Babylon, then elsewhere, just as described by the bible. Some of the earliest cities described in the bible have been recently confirmed as the earliest civilizations of known history.
The very fact that you point to temples rather than evidence of human occupation is evidence in itself! Clearly there is evidence of earlier human occupation since you choose an argument that disregards such evidence. And let me point out that Coyote has shown a human skeleton per-dating Catal Huyuk in Alaska in another thread Message 14 - which you must have read because you replied to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 5:37 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 6:31 PM PaulK has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 145 of 991 (705268)
08-25-2013 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
08-25-2013 2:57 PM


Nobody discounts the possibility before the evidence is in. The Troy legend was possible and turned out to be true. A lot of other legends are possible but have not been confirmed or have actually been refuted. While the spread of civilization may be depicted with some accuracy in the Bible, the spread of animal life ceretainly is not. For example, where is the evidence of marsupials wandering from Ararat to Australia?
I think you are incorrect when you say "nobody discounts the possibility before the evidence is in". The concept of a worldwide flood is often ridiculed even though other so-called legends in the bible are proven fact.
Yes the bible does not give details how the animals spread, and the marsupial question is particularly fascinating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 08-25-2013 2:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 147 by jar, posted 08-25-2013 6:02 PM mindspawn has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 146 of 991 (705270)
08-25-2013 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by mindspawn
08-25-2013 5:54 PM


mindspawn writes:
I think you are incorrect when you say "nobody discounts the possibility before the evidence is in". The concept of a worldwide flood is often ridiculed even though other so-called legends in the bible are proven fact.
The evidence is in: the Flood didn't happen. Other proven facts in the Bible have no bearing on the disproof of the Flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 5:54 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 147 of 991 (705271)
08-25-2013 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by mindspawn
08-25-2013 5:54 PM


But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
But the Biblical Flood has been totally refuted for whell over 100 years and no honest sane person today thinks the Biblical flood ever happened.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 5:54 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by mindspawn, posted 08-25-2013 6:40 PM jar has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 148 of 991 (705272)
08-25-2013 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by PaulK
08-25-2013 3:43 PM


I'd like to see some evidence for this claim. Mount Olympus figures very strongly in Greek Mythology, but there is no doubt that the mountain is real. Likewise it is entirely possible for the story of the Trojan war to appear in a book of mythology without Troy itself being considered a myth rather than a legend.
Are you truly interested in whether the word myth or the word legend is more appropriate for Troy story? I don't think it matters much or is relevant to this thread. I just bought it up to illustrate a minor sidepoint, and its not worth delving into.
That's not exactly true at this point in time. There is a lot of other data used to construct the timeline.
Perfectly true, that is why I said "ONE of the major pillars of our standard historical timelines is in fact false." David Rohl describes how there are four major pillars on which the traditional timeline is based, he refutes 3 of these pillars including the obvious Shishak/Shoshenk error and creates a new and more logical timeline which places the exile/conquest and first kings of Israel into the bronze age.
I think that you are wrong about this. A stela found at Megiddo confirms that Shoshenq took the city.
This is the point I am making, Shoshenk conquered Israel (including Megiddo), whereas the biblical Shishak conquered Judah. They were two separate countries.
David Rohl makes the same mistake that the early Biblical Archaeologists made. His timeline doesn't work - the Assyrian chronology in particular is a problem.
Kindly be more specific.
The very fact that you point to temples rather than evidence of human occupation is evidence in itself!
Temples are significant part of civilization, but Turkey also shows the earliest cave settlements on earth and the earliest towns on earth. Fitting in with the bible's version of mankind coming from Mt Ararat in Turkey, and travelling south east from there.
AsiaMinorTours.com is for sale | HugeDomains

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2013 3:43 PM PaulK has replied

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mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 149 of 991 (705273)
08-25-2013 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by jar
08-25-2013 6:02 PM


Re: But the Biblical Flood myths have been totally refuted.
But the Biblical Flood has been totally refuted for whell over 100 years and no honest sane person today thinks the Biblical flood ever happened.
Could you kindly refer to my post 295 in the following thread:
Where did the water come from and where did it go? - Message 295
Please note that I hadn't even posted the full extent of my proof for vast sedimentation during the P-T boundary across vast flood plains on all continents. I believe other creationists have neglected to look in the right place to find the evidence of the worldwide flood, but the evidence is there in numerous scientific journals.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Made link message specific - It had been page specific, which for my page lengths wasn't the correct page.

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 Message 147 by jar, posted 08-25-2013 6:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 150 of 991 (705281)
08-25-2013 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by kofh2u
08-24-2013 7:39 PM


Re: ... invoke magic as explanation...
Like the psychologist said to he man wearing nothing but saran wrap:
"I can clearly see you're nuts."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by kofh2u, posted 08-24-2013 7:39 PM kofh2u has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by kofh2u, posted 08-26-2013 11:36 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
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