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Author Topic:   Moral Relativism
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6106 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 106 of 284 (68634)
11-22-2003 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by crashfrog
11-22-2003 5:52 PM


Crashfrog,
Societies that pick morals that disenfranchise large portions of their populations don't survive. Societies that pick morals that make as many people as possible as happy and fulfilled as possible tend to survive.
So then are some moral structures better than others in that they allow more people to survive? If so, then which standard of morality do you propose is best? Which standard creates the greatest chance of survival?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by crashfrog, posted 11-22-2003 5:52 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2003 12:38 AM w_fortenberry has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 107 of 284 (68706)
11-23-2003 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by w_fortenberry
11-22-2003 7:46 PM


So then are some moral structures better than others in that they allow more people to survive?
Yes. What, you didn't think a moral relativist would have a way to judge moral structures?
If so, then which standard of morality do you propose is best? Which standard creates the greatest chance of survival?
I dunno. I suspect that successful moral structures share some precepts, like "the lawgivers shall not be above the law" and "all adults of sufficient maturity will be allowed to participate in the political process." The golden rule seems to cover most of the rest - i.e. you wouldn't like it if people stole from you, so don't steal from other people.
On the other hand, there's no reason why a moral code could exist that was the opposite of these things, and yet everybody in the society was happyand prosperous. I could hardly look down on such a structure, even if it wouldn't suit me personally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by w_fortenberry, posted 11-22-2003 7:46 PM w_fortenberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by w_fortenberry, posted 11-23-2003 3:07 PM crashfrog has replied

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6106 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 108 of 284 (68756)
11-23-2003 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by crashfrog
11-23-2003 12:38 AM


Crashfrog,
Are you saying that some morals are good because they produce happiness and survival while some morals are bad because they produce suffering and death?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2003 12:38 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2003 5:13 PM w_fortenberry has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 109 of 284 (68778)
11-23-2003 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by w_fortenberry
11-23-2003 3:07 PM


Are you saying that some morals are good because they produce happiness and survival while some morals are bad because they produce suffering and death?
Maybe the discussion would be a little more fruitful if you actually read my statements as opposed to trying to trap me into saying what you want me to say. You've been trying to do it for 3-4 posts now and it's starting to grate.
Why don't you actually read what I wrote. It's all there, and I've explained it several times. I highly doubt you're having trouble understanding it.
Again, what I'm saying is that societies either gravitate towards those morals that produce happiness, or else they don't survive. People want to be happy. They don't want to suffer. Societies don't survive unless they acheive those things for their members.
It's not about good or bad. It's about survival.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by w_fortenberry, posted 11-23-2003 3:07 PM w_fortenberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by w_fortenberry, posted 12-01-2003 12:07 AM crashfrog has replied

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6106 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 110 of 284 (70190)
12-01-2003 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by crashfrog
11-23-2003 5:13 PM


Crashfrog,
You have clearly stated that:
societies either gravitate towards those morals that produce happiness, or else they don't survive.
This statement then begs the question, what is the source of happiness? Solomon also sought this question in the book of Ecclesiastes. Here is what he found.
What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? (Ecclesiastes 1:3)
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after. (Ecclesiastes 1:11)
I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: (Ecclesiastes 1:13)
I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. (Ecclesiastes 1:14)
I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. (Ecclesiastes 1:17)
I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 2:1)
I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: (Ecclesiastes 2:9)
Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 2:11)
There is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool. Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit. (Ecclesiastes 2:16-17)
Yea, I hated all my labour which I had taken under the sun: because I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me. And who knoweth whether he shall be a wise man or a fool? (Ecclesiastes 2:18-19)
For there is a man whose labour is in wisdom, and in knowledge, and in equity; yet to a man that hath not laboured therein shall he leave it for his portion. This also is vanity and a great evil. (Ecclesiastes 2:21)
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)
Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 4:2-3)
There is one alone, and there is not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother: yet is there no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither saith he, For whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good? This is also vanity, yea, it is a sore travail. (Ecclesiastes 4:8)
He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity.(Ecclesiastes 5:10)
Seeing there be many things that increase vanity, what is man the better? For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun? (Ecclesiastes 6:11-12)
Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. (Ecclesiastes 7:29)
The misery of man is great upon him. For he knoweth not that which shall be: for who can tell him when it shall be? (Ecclesiastes 8:6-7)
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it. (Ecclesiastes 8:8)
All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. (Ecclesiastes 9:2-3)
For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. (Ecclesiastes 9:12)
A man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him? (Ecclesiastes 10:14)
Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (Ecclesiaste 7:20)
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; (Ecclesiastes 12:1)
In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him. (Ecclesiastes 7:14)
For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: (Ecclesiastes 9:1)
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)
It is good that thou shouldest take hold of this; yea, also from this withdraw not thine hand: for he that feareth God shall come forth of them all. (Ecclesiastes 7:18)
Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man’s heart discerneth both time and judgment. (Ecclesiastes 8:5)
Thus Solomon claims that happiness and survival comes from obedience to God. You claim that human societies must develop morals that produce happiness, and with this I agree. Let me ask you then, can you present for us a single society which has adopted such morals independent of the Word of God?
I am presenting the following two articles as an example of a society that followed the advice of Solomon and adopted the morals of the Bible as absolute. This choice produced a happiness throughout the entire society that was reported of in newspapers around the globe. Can you present a single non-Christian society which has produced such reports as these?
http://www.welshrevival.org/histories/shaw/08.htm
http://www.welshrevival.org/histories/shaw/11.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by crashfrog, posted 11-23-2003 5:13 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by sidelined, posted 12-01-2003 7:30 AM w_fortenberry has not replied
 Message 112 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2003 8:29 AM w_fortenberry has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 111 of 284 (70228)
12-01-2003 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by w_fortenberry
12-01-2003 12:07 AM


w_fortenberry
Obviously this statement is wrong.
Thus Solomon claims that happiness and survival comes from obedience to God
I can say this from a personal point of view since I am hardly obedient to God and I am happy overall.Now Solomon or you or others may say this is true for you and the statement would hold but not in general since not everyone requires this in order to be happy.
fixed quote tags - The Queen
[This message has been edited by sidelined, 12-01-2003]
[This message has been edited by sidelined, 12-01-2003]
[This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 12-01-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by w_fortenberry, posted 12-01-2003 12:07 AM w_fortenberry has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 112 of 284 (70234)
12-01-2003 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by w_fortenberry
12-01-2003 12:07 AM


This statement then begs the question, what is the source of happiness?
It doesn't beg the question at all, because it doesn't matter what the source of happiness is. For that matter there's no reason to believe that your source of happiness is anything like mine. Maybe Solomon's happiness comes from doing the will of God or whatever, but mine doesn't.
I am presenting the following two articles as an example of a society that followed the advice of Solomon and adopted the morals of the Bible as absolute. This choice produced a happiness throughout the entire society that was reported of in newspapers around the globe.
The people in your articles don't sound happy to me. Or did you miss at the bottom of your first article:
quote:
I am afraid some people’s heaven will be a very small one They want to go to heaven on tip-toes, without anybody knowing it, I fear nobody will know they are there.
You challenged me to present a society that was happpy without God's Word? I submit that you have failed to present a society that was happy with God's word. Let me ask you - does Wales still cleave to the Word to this day? Or did that society decide that they wanted something else?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by w_fortenberry, posted 12-01-2003 12:07 AM w_fortenberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by w_fortenberry, posted 12-01-2003 5:21 PM crashfrog has replied

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6106 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 113 of 284 (70350)
12-01-2003 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by crashfrog
12-01-2003 8:29 AM


Crashfrog,
It doesn't beg the question at all, because it doesn't matter what the source of happiness is.
How can one devise a system of morality which will provide happiness if he doesn't know how that happiness is obtained? He cannot. Thus your statement begs the question of the source of happiness.
did you miss at the bottom of your first article:
quote:
I am afraid some people’s heaven will be a very small one They want to go to heaven on tip-toes, without anybody knowing it, I fear nobody will know they are there.
It is very important when reading or presenting evidence that it be kept in context. For example take the following comment by John Wesley.
In the evening, very unwillingly, I went to a Society in Aldersgate street where one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter past nine, while Luther was ddescribing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did, at that moment, trust in Christ alone for salvation, and an assurance was given me on the spot that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and had thus saved me from the law of sin and death.
Now if one were to quote this comment without the first sentence, it would seem that John Wesley came to salvation under the ministry of Martin Luther. This is obviously incorrect, and if quoted in this manner, the entire statement would be viewed as false. However, the inclusion of the first sentence makes the context clear and the quote less dubious.
By the same token, please notice that the quote you presented was preceeded by the following statement.
quote:
Some men try to get one arm around the world and the other round heaven they want both.
When viewed in this context the comment that you quoted is seen as the belief of the author regarding the condition of those who try to mix the two opposing value systems of the world and heaven. It is not a report of the state of those who have whole heartedly embraced the Christianity of the Welsh revivals.
I submit that you have failed to present a society that was happy with God's word. Let me ask you - does Wales still cleave to the Word to this day? Or did that society decide that they wanted something else?
I have presented a society that obtained widespread happiness through an adherence to God's Word; however, as you have pointed out, Wales does not have this same happiness today. Why not? You have already provided the explanation. The society that exists in Wales today has chosen to disregard God's Word: they have left the source of happiness.
Societies consist of individual people not of lands or countries. Thus the country of Wales cannot be said to be the same society that presided over that country one hundred years ago. Today they are a distinctly different society because they are distinctly different people; and, as such, they must make their own decision to chose or reject that system of morality which will produce the greatest amount of happiness. The Welsh revivals are evidence that a society can find greater happiness through obedience to God's Word than through adherence to any other moral system. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please present it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2003 8:29 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2003 7:40 PM w_fortenberry has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 114 of 284 (70373)
12-01-2003 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by w_fortenberry
12-01-2003 5:21 PM


How can one devise a system of morality which will provide happiness if he doesn't know how that happiness is obtained?
Trial and error. Intuition. Observation. You say to yourself "you know, this moral precept seems to have no practical value, and just makes people plain unhappy. Why bother with it?"
It's resoundingly easy, and requires no recourse to 3000-year-old books.
I have presented a society that obtained widespread happiness through an adherence to God's Word; however, as you have pointed out, Wales does not have this same happiness today.
Woah, wait a minute. Don't put words in my mouth. What I pointed out is that Wales doesn't cleave to the same code. But they're very likely more happy as a result. You hardly substantiated that they were happy in the first place.
How do you explain that Nigeria is the happiest nation currently if what it takes is following God's word? They're largely Muslim there, you know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by w_fortenberry, posted 12-01-2003 5:21 PM w_fortenberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by w_fortenberry, posted 12-02-2003 12:03 PM crashfrog has replied

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6106 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 115 of 284 (70570)
12-02-2003 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by crashfrog
12-01-2003 7:40 PM


Crashfrog,
I stated:
quote:
The Welsh revivals are evidence that a society can find greater happiness through obedience to God's Word than through adherence to any other moral system.
You have asked:
How do you explain that Nigeria is the happiest nation currently if what it takes is following God's word?
By asking this question, do you mean to claim that the happiness in Nigeria is equivalent to, if not greater than, that happiness which existed in Wales at the beginning of the twentieth century?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by crashfrog, posted 12-01-2003 7:40 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by :æ:, posted 12-02-2003 12:19 PM w_fortenberry has not replied
 Message 117 by crashfrog, posted 12-02-2003 1:17 PM w_fortenberry has replied

  
:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7184 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 116 of 284 (70573)
12-02-2003 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by w_fortenberry
12-02-2003 12:03 PM


Not to disrupt your dialogue with crashfrog, but I thought I'd mention that a recent scientific study showed practicing Buddhists to be the happiest individuals, generally speaking.
BBC NEWS | Health | Buddhists 'really are happier'
Seems that even more of the evidence indicates that the greatest happiness does not come from faith in the Christian God as you've claimed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by w_fortenberry, posted 12-02-2003 12:03 PM w_fortenberry has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 117 of 284 (70585)
12-02-2003 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by w_fortenberry
12-02-2003 12:03 PM


that happiness which existed in Wales at the beginning of the twentieth century?
You haven't established that Wales was happy, just that they followed God's word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by w_fortenberry, posted 12-02-2003 12:03 PM w_fortenberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by w_fortenberry, posted 12-02-2003 6:21 PM crashfrog has replied

  
w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6106 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 118 of 284 (70628)
12-02-2003 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by crashfrog
12-02-2003 1:17 PM


Crashfrog,
You haven't established that Wales was happy, just that they followed God's word.
Please notice that I have presented evidence for the happiness of Wales during the Welsh revivals. I have shown that your only rebuttal of that evidence was taken out of context. I have requested that you present any evidence that you may have which contradicts my evidence. You have not presented any such evidence. Therefore, my statement and evidence still stand unrefuted. Do you have anything to present as a refutation of my position?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by crashfrog, posted 12-02-2003 1:17 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by crashfrog, posted 12-02-2003 6:29 PM w_fortenberry has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 119 of 284 (70630)
12-02-2003 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by w_fortenberry
12-02-2003 6:21 PM


Please notice that I have presented evidence for the happiness of Wales during the Welsh revivals.
Um, no. You've presented two newspaper articles that imply that the writer thinks the Welsh are happy. What was his methodology? Who did he talk to? Or did he simply say "well, they're following God's word, so they must be happy?" There's absolutely no indication that the writer of the articles actually interviewed enough Welshpeople to know if they were happy or not.
So, sorry. There's no reason to believe that the Welsh of that time were any happier than anybody else, and considerable reason to doubt that they were, as they changed their mind about the whole god's word thing, presumably in an effort to be happier.
I have requested that you present any evidence that you may have which contradicts my evidence.
I've presented the fact that the Welsh don't cleave to the same code. Why wouldn't they, if it made them so damn happy? Why would people decide to be less happy? As yet this point has be unrebutted.
It's been presented to you that Buddists tend to be more happy. This contradicts your position as well.
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 12-02-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by w_fortenberry, posted 12-02-2003 6:21 PM w_fortenberry has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 120 of 284 (128985)
07-30-2004 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Majorsmiley
05-16-2003 1:19 PM


Its all relative! Are you absolutely certain?
Relativism is the philosophy that denies absolutes. Any absolutes,mind you! Everyone believes that there are many relativities, that some things are relative; but relativism claims that all things are relative. In religion, a true relativist would give equal merit to each and every individual faith revolving around no fixed absolute. God, in fact, is relative to the individual. By contrast, absolute thought would say that God is an unchanging absolute regardless of how anyone perceives Him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Majorsmiley, posted 05-16-2003 1:19 PM Majorsmiley has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-01-2004 12:18 AM Phat has not replied

  
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