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Author Topic:   Question for creationists: Why would you rather believe in a small God?
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 277 of 301 (706061)
09-05-2013 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
09-05-2013 3:18 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
I seem to remember hearing atheists say things like pink bunnies didn't create everything and then they go to compare it to biblical thought... Point: in this reality there are restrictions and god knows them and if god breaks them there is consequences. I was not saying god would create something broken and man would have to fix it. Lol. Reread. And that would not make him less powerful. Lol. It's choice. Fyi: god's ways are higher than our ways. Oh and yes he chose to give us free agency which is loving IMO.

Edited by Alias, : Edit

Edited by Alias, : Edit

Edited by Alias, : No reason given.

Edited by Alias, : Edit


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 3:18 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 4:00 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 279 of 301 (706064)
09-05-2013 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
09-05-2013 4:00 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

But, my point was that our Free Agency is broken because there are several examples of it being used to create atrocities. I was using your analogy.

Using free agency to commit atrocities does not mean it is broken. This is something that is possible with free agency and I'm sure god is aware of it hence why it took the power to live forever away from man in genesis 3. The idea behind it is, god is working with humanity effectively creating beings that are loving and that love freely without being controlled. At least that is the spin I am following. It does permit a lot of evil which is why there is going to be a judgement to blot it out and also why we apparently have so much time. It is not that god does not have the power to stop it or that it does not love enough because it does not stop it, etc it is just simply it has a plan laid out. Please do keep in mind that within scripture there is several times when man is called to be good and not evil with freedom. God is acting like a mentor not like a boss, even though there will be judgement if humanity is going to be evil. It's rather complex. Point just because evil exist does not only quantify that a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god does not exist, it COULD just mean he has a plan setup and is sticking to that plan hence the all knowing side of it. When you ask questions and get answers that don't seem logical now, I feel they will be logical in time. This is where I am coming from. Oh and free agency is not broken because humanity is evil, IMO true free agency permits anything to happen including evil. True free agency does not restrict at all. I would be more inclined to think that god created everything as it is and knew of the potential good/bad and then is going to judge it down the road to remove the bad vs atheism. If I was the god that is a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god then I would probably have a lot more to tell you on that particular topic. However I am not just going to conclude that this is not possible or not logical, etc just because I don't know. This is exactly what atheism does, in absence of information it concludes god is not possible. The rest of your point is moot IMO.

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : last update


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 4:00 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 281 of 301 (706068)
09-05-2013 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
09-05-2013 3:15 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


All-Knowing=Knowing everything. Even if natural processes are how human beings came about in your scenario, your God still knows that a specific process will ultimately end in the creation of a rapist that will destroy the innocence of a child. Prior to birth of the rapist, your God could have known which evolutionary line would lead to the rapist and snipped that line at any point, he knew what would happen and allowed it to occur. However, he chooses to not do so which shows a lack of love for the child, while simultaneously showing love to the rapist by allowing him/her Free Agency. Either a created rapist or a created through God's natural process rapist, your God is ultimately responsible because he/she/it would have foreknowledge of the results of his cosmic experiment. In other words, he knows from the beginning about every rapist and the decisions they will make to rape...yet allows it. Again, if that's loving us, it is logically inconsistent.

Perhaps if god cuts out a specific part of data during creation it does not grant real free agency. Hence all knowing. The rest of your point is moot in this context.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

They were deceived? Are we bringing the Fall of Mankind into this now as well? Well, guess what the Fall is unimportant to the personage of God. We are not discussing the evils of humanity, a subject I would agree with you on, but rather the fact that your God, with conditions as they are, cannot be All-Knowing, All-Powerful, and All-Loving all that same time. It is not logically consistent...sometimes he is all-knowing, but allowing a child to be raped, which is not loving. Sometimes, he is all-loving such as giving humans Free Agency, but not all-powerful because he would have known the acts that he would have to judge in advance and could have avoided the pain and suffering in the first place. There is a logical inconsistency that exists that can't be avoided simply by saying, "Well, God knows more than we do." Passing the buck to an unevidenced deity is not logical.

I don't understand your point on the fall of mankind. I do think it is important because we are discussing why humanity is evil. Humanity is responsible for its evil not god. Humanity was given free agency and used it to do evil. It is not the other way around. Giving humanity freedom is loving. Again; if humanity is evil with that freedom it is humanities fault not god's and that point does not negate god's love. God has tried to influence humanity over and over in the bible yet humanity is evil. IF you have read any of my posts you would understand how that works. If not I will repeat it. God is going to judge humanity after a set amount of time. FYI: God's ways are higher than our ways and I can use that because it does make sense hence it being a god...

Lol. Are you serious? Free agency is the opposite of pre crime. Even if god thought hey this may happen he granted us free agency to see what we would do with it. Giving us a chance to do what is right. You can't judge something until after the crime has been committed. This is perhaps why god does things the way it does them. Why don't you try to spend time thinking of ways how it is possible that god exists and why it does things the way it does them instead of spending time thinking about how since god does not do it my way it just does not exist! Lol...

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


So, an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God, created beings (through his planned natural processes) to be free...."All-knowing" full well that many humans would use that freedom to harm others...but even knowing that these terrible tragedies would happen, went ahead with the plan anyway? Why would this God not rethink his plan? Perhaps put in some system of balances that would allow for maximum freedom, with minimum pain. Unless, of course he is not all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-loving.

BTW, not against the idea that a God exists (although, currently I have no evidence for it), but the God you describe is still not logically consistent.

You would need to ask god your questions and have faith it will answer then start watching for extremely odd coincidences and instead of coining them coincidence coin them revelation. In a sense this is one difference between atheism and thesm. Evidence is all over especially in science. Can you explain how elements became amino acids, polypeptides, proteins, cells, tissues, organs, organ systems, beings, and the like? Not a single part of the toe can explain any of that. It breaks down at the formation of amino acids with it is very unlikely that natural processes created them even though it could happen it seems to only happen under intelligent intervention such as in labs.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


No, based on the only level of thought and perspective we are capable of, which is logical and rational thought. Again, if you want your God to be irrational and illogical, feel free. However, don't feel piled upon when we point out how your God is inconsistent with the facts that we observe in the world. After all, with every point we have brought up, you have had to hand-wave it away because of some unevidenced proposition, such as Free Agency, simply because your God does not fit with the logical actions of a rational, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving being. No, God didn't want the innocent child to get raped, he just had to let it happen because he could not interfere with the rapists' free agency. But, he's got no problem with the rapist removing the child's free agency...really, Alias?

No it is based on your thought and those that support your thought. There are plenty of people out there including scientist that work for nasa that are theists. If you are claiming that the only logical thought and rational thought is ONLY your vantage then you are extremely closed minded and not a scientist as in science the most extreme imaginations have help shape theories like the TOE, the multiverse theory, big bang theory, and to try and explain gravity, etc only to come up extremely short. Clearly since science is coming up extremely short it has something wrong. Science has gone from thinking our planet is flat to knowing it is not, from thinking we live in 1 universe to thinking we live in a multi verse. To thinking that space is subject to gravity and then to thinking gravity is subject to space because space bends, etc. The imagination is what leads science in a very BIG way. IS it really so inconceivable that god is real and that it is involved in the creation of existence? or is it just easier to say "just because we don't understand it does not mean god did it" all day long? I feel it is good to think of ways how god actually could exist instead of beating in atheism and just accepting it because there is a small group of people running around on planet earth claiming there is no god and their thoughts are the MOST logical and rational. Lol... I think freely and will continue to think that way unaffected by any other tide of thought unless I agree with it.

ALSO a god existing is completely consistent with all the facts from the fossil record, biology, chemistry, physics, to whatever evidence you want to toss out there... I have found nothing that screams god does not exist. Nothing. I have found that belief is the mind of the person I am having the discussion with and has nothing to do with logic or rational thinking (I mean that rational thinking does not quantify to truth all the time). In fact most of the time when people scream god does not exist and that is more rational and logical it is actually not logical at all. Everything from nothing, really??? Are you kidding me?? One great piece of evidence of a god creator is living cells and everything that is going on inside of them. Another great piece of evidence is living beings and everything that goes on inside of them from being able to see, think, hear, smell, taste, be aware, fight off disease, etc. The fossil record and the way it is buried does not scream evolution that is a interpretation, it just screams creation. The order of creation is not important at all as it is clear in the bible we have two different orders if you read gen 1 and 2, so in science we are merely discovering the actual order of things. Honestly it just depends on how you spin things and logic can be completely logical in two different ways. It is just a matter of what vantage a person has of the facts. Perhaps gravity is better explained/observed further out in space than near a planet. OR perhaps it is better understood on a planet than it is out in space. Different vantages bring different contrasting understandings. What is logical from one vantage is not so logical from another, etc. Point; atheism is not more logical than theism. IMO theism is way more logical than atheism.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


So, your statement reads that free agency is a gift of love and that because of that an all-loving individual should allow a child to be raped. You are happy with future judgment, but that does not show love. That still allows the child to be raped! How on Earth can you not see this. In your scenario, your God is showing love to the rapist by refusing to remove his free agency (Sure, he'll punish him/her after the fact of what God already knew he/she would do), but is showing a lack of love to the child, who has to suffer the rape, plus the loss of his/her free agency, whilst the rapist gets to keep his free agency. I would like a clear and concise way that allowing this to happen is showing love to the innocent child?!?

No it reads:

Yes it is a huge gift of love to be able to do what one feels but also to not be a robot. In my mind I think of a god that is giving me the chance to do what is right without it controlling me. It is about the heart of humanity not the heart of god (we are being tested). IT is a test (to reward with eternity). Those that choose to do evil will probably be blotted out from existence along with all evil (all powerful all knowing all loving creator god).

SO you should be understanding that I meant "free agency" is a gift of love from god instead of being a robot and not knowing the difference. And that in my mind I think of a god that is giving me the chance to do what is right without it controlling me. It is about the heart of humanity not the heart of god. That this choice thing is a test to see if I will make the right choice. What the hell are you talking about???? To answer your point though, an all loving individual should not allow a child to be raped hell no. That is why there is judgement. We are given the choice to do what is right. God wont judge us until we actually do something wrong. AND that does not take away a childs free agency. IF it did the child would not be able to continue living FREE. It was a crime, it was evil and the evil doer will be punished. Eff pre crime. That is a terrible idea and eff being a robot. I want to be free and given the chance to do what is right. This is loving in my mind. IT is also completely logical. IF you want to live in a country where you are controlled go live in one if you don't like being given the chance to do what is right as we have here in america. Innocent until PROVEN guilty. DUH! TO hell with totalitarian thought.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


First off, you have no idea who I am, and you have zero right to call me not a good person. I have made no claims against you, but rather against the God you are putting up for discussion. So, let's keep the discussion on the topic and avoid talking about one another in a negative fashion. (And trust me, with your statements in this thread, I am holding a lot back) In the correct context, I have already shown that your statement shows love to a rapist, but not to the child who had his free agency removed. In the scenario, your God cared more that he did not intervene, rather than ensure the child's free agency and not the rapist's. In other words, your god chose the rapist. How is this all-loving?

You made a clear choice to manipulate my post and it failed you. Then you did it again in your last post. Please quote me in the context. IF you continue to do that then I will judge you in my mind as doing evil because you were being deceptive. Luckily this forum does not delete posts and acts kinda like nature in that what people say can be tested to show them as liars or truth sayers.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


However, even you stated that evil takes time to spot, not that you can blatantly charge another person with it (such as Criminal activity not being evil). So, lets leave calling one another evil out of this discussion as well, okay? After all, this thread is about how the only logically possible God is a smaller version than that portrayed by religions.

Hence why I pointed it out that you were being evil. I was pointing out the act I did'nt say YOU ARE EVIL. I said it is evil. I gave you a chance to correct your behavior to see if you are evil or good. Seems like you are simply taking what I am saying out of context, which is a good thing because I would love to continue this conversation. Oh and no problem I will leave it out as long as I don't spot evil. If I spot evil I will call it out.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


You are missing the entire point. Justice in time is what we as humans can offer a child who is raped. We can catch the criminal, put him/her on trial and ensure that the child can receive the best justice that we can give. God, on the other hand, according to you is All-Powerful (can do anything), All-knowing (knows the child is going to be raped), and All-Loving (Yet, for some reason this one you have put onto giving the rapist free agency, instead of protecting the innocent child), yet he does nothing, simply as you put it to "avoid being a hypocrite". Your All-Loving God is more concerned with being a hypocrite toward a rapist then with protecting an innocent child from being raped, and you call this All-Loving? I cannot, nor will I, lower my standards of what love means to even begin to entertain that idea.

This model you speak of is biblical in root. That is why we do things that way and it is the RIGHT way to do them. Hence probably why god does them that way all throughout the bible.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


You are trying, however you are failing miserably at portraying anything but a God who either:

A. Doesn't love us, but is able to be all powerful and all-knowing

B. Loves us, knows what will happen, but is powerless to stop it

C. Loves us, is powerful enough to stop things, but is unaware of what will happen.

or

D. A Loving, Powerful, Knowing God. (Notice the lack of All before all of those words)

You know how selfish you make humanity sound? Grow up man! I am laying out a model that makes perfect sense and I know alot of people that agree with it. YOU have to realize that there are certain restrictions or limitations that come with freedom that clearly god is not going to break. This is the model I am laying out. This is the model that is in the bible as well, as far as I can tell. I am ok with this model. Do also keep in mind that it would be POINTLESS to grant free agency and then take it away. ALSO keep in mind that not giving something the chance to do right, to prove you wrong even if you thought they would do wrong is wrong. IT is right to give people a chance to do right FIRST before you judge them.

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:

When you try to combine all three things, All-Loving, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, the logic simply breaks down based solely upon the observations of the world around us. I could at least picture any of the options I gave you, although i would not be convinced of their existence without evidence to support the hypothesis. However, your option is logically inconsistent because it requires God to be indifferent to suffering (allowing a child to be raped, knowing full well it will happen) which removes all-loving, or not able to stop it (By God not being able to be a hypocrite, God is not powerful enough to stop suffering), which removes all-powerful, or has no idea what is going on and so his power and love can't be brought to bear, so not all-knowing. Combining all three of those ideas with observation of the REAL world shows just how illogical your god is.

The problem is you're not accepting the limitations. If you turn on a light in a room the darkness goes away. This is a property of light. IF you give man free agency a property of that free agency is evil. If god sets up a plan and sticks to that plan this is a GOOD thing not a BAD thing, even if it means evil happens. YOU have to realize that it is good because god is going to expose evil (the evil humans from the good humans) and blot it out. God is creating heaven in a sense. Clearly this is the way god is doing it, probably because god would like to have people that freely love over those that are controlled to love. IF god interferes with freedom then he is interfering with people freely loving (hence the interference) and forcing them to be controlled lovers (due to interference). This is wrong.

God showing up and stopping a criminal would show its power and love absolutely but it would also show it to others that would have continued to be evil. This is a collateral effect. It would clearly force them to be lovers of god VS being free lovers of god.

IF you do this you get that, if you do that you get this... Lights on no darkness, lights off you get darkness... No sun no energy, etc.... Limitations of reality... God is aware of them.... I don't know any other way to explain it.. Light switch on, light switch off... Wax on wax off... Lol...

Oh gosh man add it in.. Conclusions are not flawless... Anytime a person says they conclude this you can pretty much assume it is not perfect so in that sense "most of the time" is already in there without it being said.... I was not trying to shovel blame onto secular folk I am shoveling it onto them. People that do not fear god are more likely to be evil than those who fear god. This is logical. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR MAN! WAKE UP! Don't get me wrong I also admitted that I don't think as a general rule of thumb they are evil but I do think if evil is being done most likely it is by secular folk! As for your stories, you don't know that any of them are actually theists.. Most likely they are using the face of religion claiming to be theist but are not really theist. Post as many stories as you want it does not make a difference. For example; In a story where a catholic priest rapes a child I would conclude he is not actually a faithful person and that he is just working for the money as a catholic priest. IT just is not LOGICAL to think a person who actually FEARS judgement in death to go and do something they know they are going to be punished for doing. This is why I said and feel the way I do, it is not to just through secular folk under the bus it is just THEY HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR... ITS logical.. I hope you get that..

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


Do I need to keep going. And remember, these people have free agency to say and believe what they want...They say they are religious, they are definitely not secular. Sorry, but thems the breaks. You do not get to force them to be secular so that your group looks better. That is deception as well, to return to your earlier mention of it.

They have the freedom to be capitalists and to get paid as well which is why they are probably working in those fields, or perhaps to get access to children. Plenty of thoughts we can come up with here... However non of them amount to them not being secular. IT does not make sense for a truly god fearing individual that fears judgement to rape children. IT is more logical for someone that thinks they can do whatever they want in their heart because there is no god that would harm children. This is where I am coming from and it is logical. FYI: The news is paid for and controlled by yours truly = those that you can trust (i'm being cynical if you didn't catch that).

Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:


But, we are not mentally free. There are impositions of morality, even upon a person who is an atheist such as myself. Now, I am not sure if it is your claim, but I have heard, many times, that these morals are an imprint from God in our spirit. If this is your claim (which you will have to clarify), then God has chosen to impede by giving us a moral compass, but not impede to remove the free agency of the rapist in these examples. So, God is choosing to provide limits in one regard (morals imprinted on humanity), but not in another that eventually destroys an innocent child (the rapist).

Again, Alias, I ask, "How on Earth can this be seen as All-Loving"?!?!?!

OH gosh that is hog wash in my mind.... You have morals because of several other reasons. Nothing wrong with atheist folk persay just that I feel that they are the ones who would do wrong over god fearing/god loving people. Please don't confuse religious people with god fearing/god loving people as they are not always the same which is why I categorize them as god fearing/god loving people. Religious people are not always going to church to warship god, I am talking about down right god fearing/god loving people.

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Edited by Alias, : sings: lets see how many edits we can do, lets see how many edits we can do, lets see how many edits we can do!!! :-(


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 09-05-2013 3:15 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 282 of 301 (706070)
09-05-2013 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Theodoric
09-05-2013 5:05 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Have you ever tried posting more than claims? You seem like an individual that just rapid posts without thinking before he posts.

Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 5:05 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 6:27 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 285 of 301 (706077)
09-05-2013 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by Theodoric
09-05-2013 6:27 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Theodoric writes:

None of your arguments are showing an omniscient god or even an omnipotent god. Your arguments are jsut reinforcing the view that your god is not what you claim.

Incorrect. If you're referring to limitations such as not interfering with humanities affairs or creating something that has the capacity to do evil none of that suggests god is not a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god. It suggests that god is creating something specific and has a plan laid out to be loving and to blot out evil while doing it.

Theodoric writes:

I made no claims. I was pointing out that your posts are not supporting your argument.

Yes you have made a claim. You claim I am not supporting my argument. I disagree. Are you just going to sit there and make a claim?

I have not made any personal attacks. How about you explain why your thought is more rational instead of making false claims.

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 6:27 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 286 of 301 (706078)
09-05-2013 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Theodoric
09-05-2013 6:35 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Theodoric writes:

You are not helping you argument. You acknowledge you god is limited. Limited in what he knows? Power?

So god wanted children to be raped?

That is the logical extension of your argument.

How? Is it your goal to manipulate what I've said or are you just blind? There is no extent of anything I've said that reads god wanted children to be raped or that god is limited. None at all. Please quote my post to be more accurate with your claims.


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 6:35 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 9:00 PM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 288 of 301 (706092)
09-06-2013 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Theodoric
09-05-2013 9:00 PM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Theodoric writes:


But that is the logical extension of your argument.

False. You're confused.

Theodoric writes:

If god is all knowing why did he set up something that would allow this to happen. An all knowing god would know it was going to happen. Or do you have another definition for omniscient.

Right. I presume god knew everything would happen. I also presume the reason god created it was out of love. Why else would he create it? Is it not loving to create something so that it can exist? Is it not better to exist than to never have existed at all? Is it not righteous to give something a chance to do right before you judge it and never create it at all. I would think that it would be better to create it and give it a chance to see if it would prove you wrong. All these traits are god extending its love. Hence all loving.

Theodoric writes:

What is your rationale for child rape if your god is omnipotent an/or omniscient?

God gave humanity free agency. That was a gift of its love. Then humanity turned and abused freedom and became evil, even though god urged humanity to use freedom for the sake of good. It all started in genesis 3 with the great deception by the serpent. The reason why god does not intervene immediately as far as I can tell is because of free agency and its big plan. What a trust worthy god. He will not break his own rules/plan even though its heart is broken due to all that child raping/evil caused by humanity. That trust should remind you that god will judge everyone for their deeds and it will bring justice and justification as to why it didn't deal with it immediately. Hence all knowing god all loving god all powerful god. Pretty simple.

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Theodoric, posted 09-05-2013 9:00 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Theodoric, posted 09-06-2013 8:51 AM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 289 of 301 (706094)
09-06-2013 12:22 AM


Done
I am done with this thread. We re going in circles.

Thanks
Alias :-)

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Stile, posted 09-06-2013 10:43 AM Alias has responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 301 (706204)
09-07-2013 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Stile
09-06-2013 10:43 AM


Re: Done
Stile,

Please ref post. I have edited that post.

Edited by Alias, : err


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Stile, posted 09-06-2013 10:43 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Stile, posted 09-10-2013 6:50 PM Alias has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 296 of 301 (706205)
09-07-2013 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Stile
09-06-2013 10:32 AM


Re: Alternate Thoughts
The entirety of your post is essentially your reasoning, and those with the same perspective (looking at the facts from the same place) in order to keep your beliefs. I do understand your opinion very well, and it does make sense to me as once upon a time I was an atheist, I just disagree with you all.

Edited by Alias, : edit


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Stile, posted 09-06-2013 10:32 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 297 of 301 (706206)
09-07-2013 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by saab93f
09-06-2013 7:52 AM


Re: Loving God
Ok. I don't think that the story is factual. It is just a story to teach people to be faithful. I also think it teaches people to fear god. Fear breeds control especially if you think this story is fact (could be I suppose depends). I'm betting this story was used to control the jewish people for centuries. However, to answer your question refer to verse 9:16.

"And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : I didn't have time to reread the whole story in my first response. I will take more time before I respond from now on. I've been editing my posts a lot because apparently I don't take the time to be clear enough and also apparently in this conversation to reread the whole story. Please keep in mind (and this may haunt me with you atheists because I know how you think as I was one once upon a time) I trust in god before I don't trust in god (or rather the thought of god) which is why I will not agree (due to my opinion and vantage) a lot of the time. Edited response. Sorry about the confusion.


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by saab93f, posted 09-06-2013 7:52 AM saab93f has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 301 (706208)
09-08-2013 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Theodoric
09-06-2013 8:51 AM


Re: Free Agency and Time to do what is RIGHT!
Theodoric writes:

Not all only is your response stunning, but it is also chilling.

You acknowledge that god knew that child rapes would happen, but claim that is a way of god showing his life?

That you could be so cavalier about it is sad and sickening.

Stunning, chilling, gruesome, disturbing, cavalier, oh gosh man get over yourself. Your form of debate is rather ridicules. It does not make your argument any more logical because you use these catch phrases drawing emotion even if you actually feel that way. Moving forward. Yes if a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god exists of course it is aware of what it is doing and of the potential. What you are not understanding is much like a teenager not understanding their parents. What is logical to them is not logical to their parents almost undoubtedly. Just like what is logical to you is not logical to a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god. Just because you can't perceive how it is loving for god to NOT INTERFERE with EVIL it does not mean that god is OK with EVIL. What is happening in Syria is terrible and I am a very loving person yet I DO NOT support Obama with his plan of attacking Syria. If you are going to turn around and claim that we are ALL EVIL or all of us that don't support it are not loving you are insane. If you can't get your mind wrapped around the ideology that god has a plan and is sticking to it and that it is all powerful all loving all knowing creator god that is your issue. Sure if god was all powerful all loving all knowing it would stop what is happening in syria right? right! That is just one vantage. This particular vantage is hard to get around, no doubt. It does not change that there are other loving ways and of course better ways of looking at it probably just extremely hard to figure out as it is a terrible thing to have to figure out.

Theodoric writes:

This does not follow your what you said earlier. Why would his heart be breaking? He has always known it was going to happen.
The anthropomorphizing is kinda disturbing too.

Knowing it is going to exist, creating something, hoping that evil does not happen even if you know it will happen, it happens and your heart is broken. I've had this happen several times in my life.

Theodoric writes:

An all knowing god would know what everyone is going to do. He knows what or deeds will be before they happened.

So lets not create anything. Lets not give it a chance. Lets prejudge it. We know it wont work! Lets ride solo for eternity and not be creative. Lets not bring something into existence that could be a friend....

theodoric writes:

Your concept of free will and an all knowing god can not be reconciled.

It does not need to be reconciled. God knew. Created beings with free agency. Gods heart was broken when they became evil. Yah pretty simple ideology. If you're saying that because people know their parents are going to die and they can't be upset and heart broken when it happens you're crazy. It does not change that they could have done something to help their parents live longer and failed to do it because.....

Edited by Alias, : gotta love dem edits...

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : 1...2...3

Edited by Alias, : 4...5...6..

Edited by Alias, : 7...8....9...

Edited by Alias, : No reason given.

Edited by Alias, : ed

Edited by Alias, : Last update

Edited by Alias, : last update. (very odd I keep finding words that were written correctly written backwards such as "is heart broken" instead of "heart is broken"... Seems rather suspicious of this forum. I know I didn't make that many mistakes but I will leave it at that. This is my last and final update if there are anymore they happened after i've through everything making sure there are no issues.


Thanks
Alias :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Theodoric, posted 09-06-2013 8:51 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 299 of 301 (706209)
09-08-2013 1:28 AM


Absolutely done
Nosyned, great post. I do talk about god as though I know it on some levels and on other levels like I can't know what it is thinking. I guess that vantage is so insane it just can't be reconciled (cynical laugh). Perhaps we experience this as humans with people we know on some levels? Ever heard of the self disclosure models? One of them is the social penetration model and another one is the johari window. Very interesting concepts but ultimately the idea here is that there are things we share about ourselves with others, things we don't share about ourselves with others, things we don't even know about ourselves that we share with others about ourselves and things nobody knows about ourselves that are completely hidden even from ourselves. Pics below. However I am sure if god exists there are things that we just don't know about god because it is purposely not being communicated. God being all knowing clearly should not have a unknown block or a blind spot block. I hope that addresses your assertion that I am confused but also that I am not thinking this all the way through or that Theodoric will not get me to think this all the way through.. Perhaps it is you that is not thinking it all the way through. We could start a new thread discussing issues mentioned here such as evidence for abiogenesis, the nature of "god", is the god of the bible real?, atheism vs theism, etc. FYI: I am done editing my posts so if you have the time and want to reread them please check them out. They may also help spawn a new thread.

Johari Model

Social Penetration Model

Edited by Alias, : ...

Edited by Alias, : Nosyned msg!

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : edit

Edited by Alias, : I decided to post something with a little content. Perhaps it will spawn another thread.

Edited by Alias, : last time edit

Edited by Alias, : Last update.


Thanks
Alias :-)

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 301 of 301 (706496)
09-12-2013 3:11 PM


A All Powerful All Knowing All Loving Creator God Does Exist
Greetings all! I will attempt to show, once again, the ideology that a all powerful all knowing all loving creator god does exist.

FYI: From here on out I will just refer to the "all powerful all knowing all loving creator god" as "god" except in a couple to few cases.

Model

God does exist and does things according to god's will. ALSO keep in mind that god's ways are above our ways and god's thoughts are above our thoughts.

Isaiah 55:8-9 NASB

"8 For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts."

Thus anytime we don't understand something we need to ask god about it. Answers come in time via revelation. Revelations are not mere coincidences (they can be), typically they are extremely odd 1/1,000,000,000 coincidences (math just an example not exact in order to portray concept).

EVIL: WRT this thought, arguments are merely questions. If we want to know why "evil exists" we need to ask "god" instead of claiming "god does not exist because evil exists" w/o evidence. Evil existing is evidence that "evil exists" not evidence that "god does not exist/does exist". Claiming god does not exist/does exist due to evil is like claiming atheism/theism by understanding the theory of evolution (If I used evil existing as a reason for god to exist in prev post please forgive me that was a mistake). There is no scientific theory that quantifies to god does/does not exist just like evil existing does not quantify to god does/does not exist. Thus evil existing quantifies to evil existing (other thoughts are based on presumptions). Here is a verse where god is permitting evil (sin) due to free agency (a loving cause) in the Bible. Hence apparently evil (sin) existing within gods created reality is permitted (probably to test humanity and what they will do with free agency) but also so is a judgement for evil (sin) thus why repenting is important.

Isaiah 55:7 NASB

"7 Let the wicked forsake his way
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
And let him return to the Lord,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon."

And if we follow the bible the cost of sin is death, so I presume those that are sinful will be blotted out from existence and not given a chance to live eternally if they don't change their ways and repent.

Romans 6:23 NIV

"23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

God does things god's way (Shroud of turin dated to time of Jesus).

I just want to remind you that in the above model it is important to understand that there are things we can't know/understand regarding god (as mentioned). We can only understand what god has shown us in scripture (IMO) and what science has revealed regarding matter (IMO). Hence why I use this model below (unpeeling the onion or rather gods mind in this instance). There is a breadth of knowledge (scripture) god has shared with humanity but I doubt it is in full depth of god's knowledge.

Gods Existence: One great question or issue being claimed here by Stile is that evil can't exist if god does exist. I argue that that is a mere opinion (as shown above) and is not biblical. IF we are to discuss god IMO we should refer to scripture. Also further Stile's opinion assumes that our understanding of all things including power, love, knowledge and the future are either higher (within the ideology that god must not exist due to evil) or equal to god's understanding of those things. I have shown that evil existing does not mean god does not exist which quantifies to Stile's opinion as moot on this topic. If god exists then god decides not humanity on how things will play out, but also as to what is what (love, power, knowledge, the future etc) since we're learning (even if you presume atheism humanity is young and still learning). I argue that god does exist and if Stile can claim that because "evil exists" god does not exist that the reality is that we simply don't understand those concepts (love, power, knowledge, the future) the same way that god understands those concepts. I personally completely level with Stile on child rape, it is terrible. However it does not quantify to god not existing because god is not responding to it the way we wish god to respond to it.

God's Power/Knowledge/Love: It has been argued here, and probably elsewhere, that because god does not interfere with evil the way we want god to interfere with evil that god must not be a all powerful, and/or a all knowing, and/or a all loving creator god. I argue that this is a mere claim. God can choose what it does in the same way people will respond to things the way they do. Except the only reason (that is logical if god does exist) god would choose not to respond to evil or interfere with evil the way we want god to interfere with evil is because it has a plan and is sticking to that plan hence gods ways. ALSO this plan I speak of is not limiting to god at all (within the thought that something exists that god can't overpower and what god can do is different than what god "wills" to do). It does not mean that because god created a plan (all knowing) that god is not powerful enough to stop evil (as per your claim) because god created the plan (all knowing) and can break the plan (all powerful) if it wanted (all knowing) to break the plan as per god's thoughts (all knowing). Evil existing does not not mean that god is not all loving because again god has created a plan (all loving) and is sticking to that plan (all knowing) hence judgement (all powerful) and abolishment of evil (all powerful). FYI: if you are about to argue well god is showing his knowledge in this spot of the plan but not showing his love/and or power in this part of the plan, please keep in mind that that issue or rather question would fall back on the idea that you are claiming you don't like something that god is permitting due to gods plan. Thus if you have questions about gods plan that I am not answering ask god. The answers I've gotten is sufficient; god is all knowing thus god knows the future and the best ways of abolishing evil in the long run. It is apparent that humanity can't stop evil, no matter what perspective you have whether atheist or theist. We want evil blotted out not managed. FYI: free agency must be included in all ideas/thoughts because this too god feels is extremely important apparently thus why we can sin. I have faith in something that is all powerful, all knowing, all loving to blot out evil. We can discuss atheism over theism in another thread if anybody so desires.

In my last point, if we look at scripture (one piece of evidence that god does exist is scripture) god has stuck to god's plan influencing people according to that plan w/o breaking free agency (depending on interpretation but also keep in mind if the interpretation is that god broke free agency god only broke free agency when it was according to god's plan) to be good people but humanity always falls back to sin. One great example that was mentioned here is the story of the exodus where god hardened the pharaoh's heart (how the hardening occurred is up to interpretation but we won't argue it here just remember that hardening the pharaoh's heart could have been as simple as telling moses what to do and god knew by performing those acts that pharaoh's heart would be hardened. In any case if god did harden pharaohs heart it would have been according to god's plan) in order to show certain things. Those things can be read in ex 9:16 and if you continue to read the bible you will find out that those people god rose up quickly returned back to sin. Please also keep in mind that this is the way god is choosing to show itself via scripture, prophets and revelation (all powerful, all knowing, all loving creator god).

Ex 9:16 NIV

"But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Edited by Alias, : organization


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


  
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