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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3073 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Message of the Bible | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3073 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
Yes, thank you for this response. I understand what you said, your attitude is rare among atheists or maybe I just have had bad luck and have encountered the bad element which exists in any given good.
I like what you said - all of it. You are obviously impacted by worthless relgious fundementalists that turn people off to God. Thanks for your candid words.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6521 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
In fact, the passages in question assume the virgins would welcome the option of life rather than die with the people God ordered to be killed. Then how do you interpret the law in Duteronomy saying that you can keep townspeople in forced laboro or kill them all and take their women? How about Jebesh-Giliad, that sounds like a "green light" for forced marrige?
The broader issue that is being smothered here is that we are judging an ancient era by the gauge of our standards in the 21st century. Then how do we judge which laws apply today and which don't? Homosexuality for instance. Or the taboos around pre-merrital sex, after all we have birth controll now. Also, this seems to imply that Gods version of right and wrong is variable, and arbitrary.
Yaro, are you familiar with the O.T. event where the prophet was insulted by a group of children and the horror that followed ? Why don't you argue against the unfairness of happened and I will answer you , and then you will begin to understand WHY God told on Himself. What do you say ? Well, I would say NO. You have yet to adress my questions above. You have not yet justified Gods actions in the incidents above. However, I assume you find this story familiar ground (Joralex deja vu). So yes, I know the passage. I belive it was 2nd Kings: chapter 2, verses 23-24.
2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. Ok, my argument is short. The kids didn't deserve it, 42 children died for calling Elija bald. That's pretty messed up. What's your justification?
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6521 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
*bump*
WT, lets talk about the bears.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6521 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
*bump*
Anyone wanna talk about the bears or the virgins? I don't mean to be anoying, but I really want to finalize this topic once and for all.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
I like bears. I say if they ate kids, they had a darned good reason.
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Zhimbo Member (Idle past 6037 days) Posts: 571 From: New Hampshire, USA Joined: |
Willowtree is not the speediest of repliers to anyone. I give her credit for that, actually. I hope she has, you know, a life. ("Willowtree" has to be a female, right?).
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2328 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Hi Zhimbo,
I originally thought that myself, and Willow never said either way. But look at this post, http://EvC Forum: CLOSING THE THREAD -->EvC Forum: CLOSING THE THREAD He also sent me an email and the name listed was most definately a guy. ------------------Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
quote: And you have a perfect right to this opinion. Afterall, the second Article to the Amendments of the Constitution of the United States of America provides for the right of the people to own and arm bears. ..um..sorry...sorry..the devil made me do it.
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Brian Member (Idle past 4984 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
deleted
Brian = drunken bum! [This message has been edited by Brian, 12-05-2003] [This message has been edited by Brian, 12-06-2003]
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3073 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
I do want to reply to your point/question before we go off on the new one.
You are really asking if God is consistent in His judgments, if this is what you are asking whether rhetorical or outright then the answer is found in the context of the circumstances. You have persistently hammered one constant point - that God ordered and condoned rape. Then you softened your stance and admitted that the verses you posted could IMPLY rape. I say this is a deduction that you want to make to fit a previous belief that you brought into the discussion. You already know what I have said concerning this debate. May I refer you to what {and I don't believe that I am doing this} fellow member ConsequenAtheist said in their reply. It was a very intelligent response of which I can endorse. The key to understanding {as opposed to agreement} the God of the O.T. is the overall context: Man is separated from the source of life {God} because of the failure of Adam and Eve in the garden. The Bible doesn't debate the fairness of all humanity bearing the punishment of Adam - it just declares it. Next context: Is God's law, the covenant He gave to Moses, which said covenant reveals God's standard of righteousness. It is in this context that God makes His judgments upon mankind separated from Him and in constant violation of His law. The reason there is so much blood in the O.T. is because there is so much sin. The one constant message that God weaves through His word is : Good or bad whatever He says will happen. The risk of defying God is the risk that He will give up on you and judge you according to His law which has the frequent penalty of death. This is the on going problem in the O.T. - humanity trifling with God. If God keeps His word invariably in the bad things then the same is true in the good things, this is what God wants known that He can be trusted. If anyone reading this is wondering about the responses I owe in the evolution topic they all will be posted tomorrow 12-6-03.
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Yaro Member (Idle past 6521 days) Posts: 1797 Joined: |
You have persistently hammered one constant point - that God ordered and condoned rape. Then you softened your stance and admitted that the verses you posted could IMPLY rape. If not rape, what about Gibesh-Giliead? They kidnaped women and took them for 'wives'! If you do not consider the mosess massacre rape, then it is at least forced servitude to your families murderers. Would you not say that this is not equaly abhorant? Someone kills your family, friends, livestock etc. and then forces you to be someones wife! Sorry, but this is some evil stuff. Rape or not, horrible attrocities are being commited here. I do apreciate consequentAthiests post, though it still does not justify the twisted morality of the situation. Are you compeatly blind to the fact that its not right to kill people and take their virgins for whatever purpose, in any context? Did it ever occur to you that ambushing dancing women and forcing them into marrige is not a good and richeous act?
It is in this context that God makes His judgments upon mankind separated from Him and in constant violation of His law. The reason there is so much blood in the O.T. is because there is so much sin. Gods people shed most of the blood. Are you saying that they were clensing the world of sin? It seems they were killing a bunch of babys, burning villages, and abducting virgins for mysterious purposes somehow related to their virginity but not including rape.
The one constant message that God weaves through His word is : Good or bad whatever He says will happen. The risk of defying God is the risk that He will give up on you and judge you according to His law which has the frequent penalty of death. I think this is the heart of the argument. So God is like a ruthless dictator. He remains hidden, unseen, and distant. Makes up laws you never heard of, then kills you for breaking them. Pretend you were a person in that village, never heard of isrealites, God, whatever. Happily tended your goats, farmd your land, and warshiped your own dietis. One day a bunch of people come over your hill and kill you all because they claim the land is theirs. Given to them centuries back lang before anyone can remember. No one told you, your just dead now. Kinda reminds me of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy: The Vogons come to earth to destroy it and make way for their Hyperspace bypass. The people of earth ask why they didn't get a warning, the vogons explain that the plans had been anounced ages ago, and had been on display in the planing office on a planet some light years away. The people of earth had several centuries in which to apeal the decree at the galactic council, but since they didn't they are going to be destroyed. Of cource, the humans werent even aware of other planets, let alone a planing counsil, so they could have never apealed. Their planet was buldozed by a beurocracy they were never aware existed at all. God seems to do this alot in the OT. It seems hes doing this to people all over the world all the time. Sorry, but I don't think it's fair. The only answer I recive from you is whatver God says goes. Might makes right, and I simply don't think this is acceptable. If us humans cant tell evil when we see it, or bad when we see it, then what did we gain in the garden? Willowtree, what is the knowledge of good and evil we gained in the garden? God says he is subject to this, as he explains that this is the quality that makes us like him. Thus he has the same facility for guaging morality as us. How come I read about murder, infantaside, forced marrige (not rape of cource), and think "gee, thats bad, in any context really", yet god gets to be good and all loving while he does these things? He said we had the same knowledge of good and evil. Yet I know baby killing is bad. So Willowtree, how come god, with the same knowledge as us, gets to say it's good? [This message has been edited by Yaro, 12-05-2003]
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jantoo1 Inactive Member |
The message of the bible is to help us to become what we need to be. It is B- basic, I- instructions, B- before, L-leaving, E- earth.. BIBLE.. It is the only book that for 2000 years has caused so much debate and what other book can say the same?? It is an educational book. it is to help you understand how to live in a world full of mess. Nothing man makes is gonna be perfect. Only God is perfect and if you got anything out of the bible at all it was that we are to do our best to gain the wisdom to know right from wrong.. The old testament god was full of fire and etc. however how much more can you show someone you love them than to give up your own beloved son to die a horrible death to cover the ugly sins of us??? there is NO greater love. Secondly the New testament is about JESUS.. he is all about love.. HE IIS GOD`S LOVE FOR MANKIND..
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Rand Al'Thor Inactive Member |
Jantoo1,
Did you even read the replies to the original message before you posted? Have you even read the bible? I have and if you think murder, rape, genocide, cannibalism, and infanticide are examples of love you need some help. Also, if jesus is willing to endure anything for us why not send him to hell to experience a little of his own medicine.BTW you are making yourself look like an idiot by posting the Oh, jesus loves us all. crap. I suggest that you back up assertions with evidence.
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3073 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
Where did I say Jesus loves us all ? Where did I mention Jesus ?
Your obvious hatred reveals that no matter what I say will have an effect towards understanding the Bible. Your mind is made up so there is nothing to debate
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2328 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Please make sure that you are responding to a post directed towards you. Rand's post was not.
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AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe
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