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Author Topic:   Biblical Eugenics - being wrong about how to colorize your goats
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 185 (706689)
09-16-2013 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 2:21 PM


Re: Reading comprehension.
Answering main point, Jacob removed the flock in 35 to breed His own. Laban asked him what can I give you in 31. Jacob replied nothing. Hence in 35 when Jacob removed them it was merely to breed (not keep. Remove does not quantify to keep) his own as per the agreement in 32 to be paid vs getting a gift. FYI: all interpretations are self serving to an extant including yours. Hence why you say the interpretation that Jacob was genetically modifying them with the branches does not matter as to the main point. This also serves atheists but I don't think I need to draw that out... Here I will happily admit it is a wee bit off of an interpretation but the other interpretation where the con/cheat took place is much more off. It does not stay in the context of CH 29-31 of who laban was and how laban felt about jacob and it does not add up in vs 40 either. FYI: I think most commentaries are even confused in this one if you read them they don't really seem confident. It is not a clear text. FYI: I'm perfectly fine with disagreeing we don't need to argue any further.

Edited by Alias, : Clarity

Edited by Alias, : Err

Edited by Alias, : Fyi


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 2:21 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 185 (706690)
09-16-2013 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by PaulK
09-16-2013 2:52 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Right. I don't disagree but it rings more true that this is what is meant is that he was using them to breed vs taking laban's. If laban took them in 35 it does not make sense to his character in prev chapters or next chapters. Laban would not cheat Jacob and Jacob would not con Laban. Plus the con/cheat interpretation does not answer v 40. You have to say he was facing them toward laban's flock that were 3 days apart. Which still does not answer how it reads Jacob was separating his from laban's in 40 as well. Anyway I made my point. Glad you get it. You do not need to agree as I will admit both interpretations are arguable. I just don't accept the con/cheat interpretation, it seems less plausible in my mind. FYI this post was meant for nonukes but it is just the same to paulk. I didn't realize Paul responded. Small print on smartphone. Sorry. FYI: hello paulk.

Edited by Alias, : End

Edited by Alias, : Paulk m


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 2:52 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 4:05 PM Alias has replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 185 (706691)
09-16-2013 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 2:27 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Actually I have cleared it up, vs 40 contradicts the con cheat interpretation. How could Jacob have access to laban's colored flock to con laban in v 40, to seperate them from laban's colored flock, if laban removed his colored flock in v 35 and cheated Jacob from removing them?

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 2:27 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 4:35 PM Alias has replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 185 (706694)
09-16-2013 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by PaulK
09-16-2013 4:05 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Respong to 3rd point for now, on cell. In v 40 Jacob separated the young and faced the others toward Laban's. There were three sets. The young, old, and laban's. Your point does not add up. The young were separate from Laban's. And I think it's just as bad to add in meaning as it is to take out a verse. Either way you get interpretation.

Edited by Alias, : Err


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 4:05 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 4:55 PM Alias has replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 185 (706696)
09-16-2013 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NoNukes
09-16-2013 4:35 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
There are three sets of flock. Ref to my last post to paulk..

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 4:35 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 185 (706702)
09-16-2013 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by PaulK
09-16-2013 4:55 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
OK. Point 1, Jacob takes the young separated them by them self (group 1). Then the others (group 2) were facing Laban's (group 3). 1 group alone, others (group 2) facing Laban's (group 3).

Point 2, no ref point 1

Point 3, merely opinion.

Edited by Alias, : Err


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 4:55 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:02 PM Alias has replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 185 (706708)
09-16-2013 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by New Cat's Eye
09-16-2013 5:56 PM


That's all side noise. We can't show w/o a doubt that the story reads Jacob was conning laban. This thread is really about biblical eugenics. Can't be shown w/o a doubt. :-)

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 5:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:13 PM Alias has replied
 Message 89 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 6:24 PM Alias has replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 185 (706709)
09-16-2013 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by PaulK
09-16-2013 6:02 PM


Re: a test for honesty.
Paul I'll do that just for you when I get home to my PC. Thx for admitting 40 does not fit. It makes it much easier for me.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:02 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 185 (706712)
09-16-2013 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by PaulK
09-16-2013 6:13 PM


Reliable to you and those that agree with u. Hence interpretation

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:13 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:27 PM Alias has replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 185 (706715)
09-16-2013 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by New Cat's Eye
09-16-2013 6:24 PM


Well it does to the point of this thread. If it makes you feel better I'll stop. You need stop aswell.. to be fair.. :-)

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 6:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 6:38 PM Alias has replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 185 (706722)
09-16-2013 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by PaulK
09-16-2013 6:27 PM


Right. Either way you get weak colored that were not used to mate present. It does not jive if laban took the colored in 35.

Edited by Alias, : err

Edited by Alias, : Err


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2013 6:27 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 09-16-2013 8:25 PM Alias has replied
 Message 106 by PaulK, posted 09-17-2013 1:32 AM Alias has replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 185 (706723)
09-16-2013 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
09-16-2013 6:38 PM


If we interpret the con/cheat happened then we accept biblical eugenics. If we don't then that whole idea is tossed out.

Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 6:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 9:20 PM Alias has replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 185 (706733)
09-16-2013 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by New Cat's Eye
09-16-2013 9:20 PM


quote:
Ugh. Really? Of course if the event never happened then it didn't happen. Are you really this dense?

I was merely pointing out that it is like dominos. If the con occurred then laban took his flock (cheating jacob) and jacob (in myth) created spotted from none spotted using magic (in the story or you could just say god helped him out depending on how you look at things). Ultimately I am just not agreeing at this point on the scenario you are arguing. If you can explain 30:40 and why it is contradictory to your argument, feel free. I'm open to new thoughts. However, for now I will reserve my thoughts until something better has been shown. Ultimately it does not matter, I just disagree that eugenics was occurring via magic (or rather that that is what the story is telling). BIG DEAL. GET over it. I am perfectly fine with disagreeing. I've said my piece.

Edited by Alias, : err

Edited by Alias, : err


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 9:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 10:19 PM Alias has not replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 185 (706734)
09-16-2013 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by New Cat's Eye
09-16-2013 9:35 PM


CS,

quote:
They just don't touch on the "eugenic" part of the story. I suppose they'd lean towards it being God's will and the carved wood not having anything to do with it, but we've never been that big on taking things super-literally.

I would agree to this thought (god being the reason in the story vs magic/eugenics). This is the direction I was getting ready to go before you were disrespectful. Hence my last post. I just wanted to finish off with that stance at that point in time but then I read this post and this makes sense. Glad you made this point. I still think my argument is plausible but not likely.

Edited by Alias, : err


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 9:35 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 10:29 PM Alias has replied

  
Alias
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 185 (706740)
09-16-2013 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by New Cat's Eye
09-16-2013 10:29 PM


CS, You know what? I've been sitting here reading this shit over and over. Why I was arguing is that V 30:40 is contrary to the idea that laban removed the colored flocks and 30:35 is a little bit confusing due to how it is written because of 30:32. ALSO how the story leads up to 30:40 just ain't clear. However, in any case this shit didn't actually happen. It is just a story to share how god is amazing. We both know that this is not how genetics works. Thus why I doubt this story really happened. They couldn't have observed this happening. What is more probable is that this is how they thought genetics (nature to them) worked and made up this preposterous story (to show god as amazing as mentioned). Anyways... Thx for the conversation. :-)

Edited by Alias, : clarity

Edited by Alias, : clarity


Thanks
Alias :-)

FYI:

"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: if we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we've been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back" - Carl Sagan -Demon Haunted World

"The whole history of science has been the gradual realization that events do not happen in an arbitrary manner, but that they reflect a certain underlying order, which may or may not be divinely inspired." -Stephen Hawking

"Before God we are all equally wise and equally foolish." -Albert Einstein


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-16-2013 10:29 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 09-17-2013 12:53 AM Alias has not replied

  
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