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Author Topic:   What if Jesus and Satan were real?
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2905
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 106 of 591 (88584)
02-25-2004 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Brian
02-25-2004 9:53 AM


Re: There is no doubt JC was
Hi Brian,
No I was not aware of that Budda teaching. And no I was not refering to the Biblical Christian fire and brimstone god.
I am sort of in a transitional phase in my beliefs. I realize that Santa claus and the Easter bunny do not exist, I just not ready to give up on God yet. But thank you for your response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Brian, posted 02-25-2004 9:53 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Brian, posted 02-25-2004 11:34 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3219 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 107 of 591 (88594)
02-25-2004 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by 1.61803
02-25-2004 10:58 AM


Re: There is no doubt JC was
Hi,

I am sort of in a transitional phase in my beliefs.

Best of luck on your journey, may you find peace and happiness.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by 1.61803, posted 02-25-2004 10:58 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

    
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1307 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 108 of 591 (89073)
02-27-2004 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Brian
02-25-2004 9:53 AM


Brian is correct.

Buddha didn't claim any sort of Divinity, he founded a way to connect to the "that behind all that".

It is followers of Buddha that have subsequently claimed Divinity for him in spite of Buddha's own admission that he was not Divine.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Brian, posted 02-25-2004 9:53 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3219 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 109 of 591 (89138)
02-27-2004 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Cold Foreign Object
02-27-2004 3:09 PM


Hi WT,

Yes some followers of Buddha see him as divine.

However, I have found at various semnars that many people do not know that there are numerous Buddha's in the universe and, in Mahayana Buddhism, we all have the potential to become a Buddha.

There is also the opportunity in Pure Land Buddhism to worship a Buddha, such as Amitabha, and when you die you got to his Buddha field where you learn how to gain Nirvana.

I believe that the most common misunderstanding about the Buddha is that he was a small fat bald guy. Siddartha Gautama is a different Buddha from the wee fat bald one. He is called Matreiya and is a Buddha who will come in the future.

I actually find some aspects of Buddhism very interesting. I did a presentation on Nagarjuna's philosophy of Sunyata at Uni a couple of years ago and struggled for a few weeks to understand what the concept of sunyata is! LOL

Cheers.

Brian


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Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 591 (89194)
02-28-2004 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Thugpreacha
01-26-2004 9:29 AM


Re: Good and Foozle foshizzle-in hell we sizzle
Phatboy,

You note,

God knew what would happen, which I agree with..since He knows everything.

Knowing everything that might happen is not the same as knowing everything that will or would happen. God does know the former, or so He tells me, but He repeatedly tells me that He does not know what I or others will choose, and parts of the future that depend on those choices are indeterminate to Him. He knows everything that might happen, but which of the mights actually takes place, He has to wait for those to whom He gave free will to make choices to know. When I ask God what will be, He tells me a few things that He is controlling outside of the influence of any free will human choices. But He says that many things have not yet been decided. He will give probabilities to alternatives, sometimes.

Leastways, that's what He tells me.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-26-2004 9:29 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 591 (89199)
02-28-2004 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Dilyias
02-10-2004 1:49 AM


Dilyias,

Your note:

Yes, many agree on the "main" or "important parts" to some degree, but the fact that disagreements exist on what God wants or means (in which case someone is wrong) makes it possible that the core beliefs in Christianity could also be wrong (or untrue).

needs to be examined in the light of the thread's main question, what would you expect if Satan were real as well? If he were real, he would produce the sorts of phonies and disagreements that one sees, so as to make unbelievers doubt that there was a way (the church) to resist the "gates of hell." After all, it was the unity of the believers, their love for one another, that was supposed to be the clincher in evangelism.

God's answer to this is simple: learn how to know what is true and what is not. Ask the question, "Oh yeah, who says?" Look closely at inspired, perservering, inspiring art. Learn the scientific method. Review history. Pray with a listening ear, and test what you hear to see if it might not really be Jehovah speaking. This is His bottom line, really. If you don't "buy the truth, and not sell it. Also wisdom, understanding, and knowledge." you miss God's boat. In the light of all these methods, all the conflict and disagreement fade away. You learn to spot hypocrisy, rationalization, wishful thinking. Facts such as Calvin's Switzerland having the longest societal run of peace and prosperity begin to stand out, meshing with a clear scriptural emphasis on "keeping His commandments."

Sometimes those who sense prophetically that they are hearing God tell them what scriptural commandments mean get together with others who disagree with them, "in the Lord's name." We would hope that then He indeed would show up as promised, and speak again, in a way that dispells disagreement. I have seen this happen. But it has to be prophetic. The debaters have to stop and pray together for God to speak, and have to report what they hear, not what they think. I've never been in such a gathering, that ended in disagreement. But, I've been in many where there was a presumption of different persons "speaking for God" and disagreeing. When challenged, though, to affirm that what they were saying was what had "proceeded from the mouth of God," the disagreeing contestants could not.

Of course, refusal to gather, to pray, or to confess that what is being said was what was heard (rhema), all constitute hypocrisy, works of the enemy. Plenty of that to work through.

As you say, if Yeshua and Satan are really out there, these sorts of prayer meetings ought to produce remarkable agreement. I have found it so. That they are rare, and poorly reported, is consistent with the Satan part of the picture.

Stephen


This message is a reply to:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12811
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 591 (707300)
09-26-2013 5:29 AM


Classic Topic
even though 90% of the respondants to this old topic no longer are here at EvC, I thought I would bring this back for current discussion.

quote:
The fact of Jesus and Satan is not a fact. It is a Belief. Now...what if this belief were real?

1) People known as Christians would be made out to look as ignorant and stupid as possible. Much of it would be their own fault, for they would try and live as believers and as worldly people at the same time.
2) Other religions would appear tranquil and quiet. Satan would have no need to mess with them.
3) People who practiced and studied occult and ancient mystery religions would be quite intellectual and bemused by all of the hoopla over supernatural reality. They would consider it all an exercise in intellectual mystic states of achievement.
4) Many would call themselves Christians who were not.
5) The Bible would be ridiculed and scorned for its fantasy, yet concepts such as alternative universes and the Tao of Physics would be reverently considered.
6) Jesus would love all of us...buffoon and bartender, professor and psychotic.
7) Satan would not let us know about him. He would make us think that we were the ones in control of our future by refusing to bow to anyone!
8) Anytime that the topic was brought up, people would attempt to either refute the basic message or distract attention from it.


Comments?


Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 09-26-2013 10:38 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2013 11:14 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 115 by ringo, posted 09-26-2013 12:02 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 117 by NoNukes, posted 09-26-2013 2:04 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 113 of 591 (707322)
09-26-2013 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Thugpreacha
09-26-2013 5:29 AM


Re: Classic Topic
Without bothering to look up the person who posted the above, my impression is that the list was composed by an ***** with an agenda.

ABE:

Oops, I see that it was you.

Self censored.

Edited by NoNukes, : Self censored.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2013 5:29 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 591 (707326)
09-26-2013 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Thugpreacha
09-26-2013 5:29 AM


Re: Classic Topic
even though 90% of the respondants to this old topic no longer are here at EvC, I thought I would bring this back for current discussion.
quote:
The fact of Jesus and Satan is not a fact. It is a Belief. Now...what if this belief were real?

1) People known as Christians would be made out to look as ignorant and stupid as possible. Much of it would be their own fault, for they would try and live as believers and as worldly people at the same time.
2) Other religions would appear tranquil and quiet. Satan would have no need to mess with them.
3) People who practiced and studied occult and ancient mystery religions would be quite intellectual and bemused by all of the hoopla over supernatural reality. They would consider it all an exercise in intellectual mystic states of achievement.
4) Many would call themselves Christians who were not.
5) The Bible would be ridiculed and scorned for its fantasy, yet concepts such as alternative universes and the Tao of Physics would be reverently considered.
6) Jesus would love all of us...buffoon and bartender, professor and psychotic.
7) Satan would not let us know about him. He would make us think that we were the ones in control of our future by refusing to bow to anyone!
8) Anytime that the topic was brought up, people would attempt to either refute the basic message or distract attention from it.


Comments?

It looks to me like you made some observations from today's world, like say that Christians are made to look ignorant, and then said that if Jesus and Satan were real, then we should see these observations from today's world that I've made.

You've provided no reason why those things follow from the premise.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2013 5:29 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2013 12:50 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17297
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 115 of 591 (707336)
09-26-2013 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Thugpreacha
09-26-2013 5:29 AM


Re: Classic Topic
Thugpreacha writes:

Now...what if this belief were real?


Your predictions stem from a very narrow view of that proposed "reality". You seem to be assuming a fundamentalist reality in which Christians are the victims rather than the "saved".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2013 5:29 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12811
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 116 of 591 (707351)
09-26-2013 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by New Cat's Eye
09-26-2013 11:14 AM


Exclusive Premise
Catholic Scientist writes:

It looks to me like you made some observations from today's world, like say that Christians are made to look ignorant, and then said that if Jesus and Satan were real, then we should see these observations from today's world that I've made.

Yes, I think thats exactly what I was assuming. 2013 "Phat" is a bit different from "2004"...one reason that I brought this topic back is because back then, EvC had a few more fundamentalist/religious folks that never questioned the hypthetical premise as much. Reading back through the topic, one can see the arguments they laid out.

Catholic Scientist writes:

You've provided no reason why those things follow from the premise.


Good point. For the sake of argument, we will follow the oremise that a basic fundamentalist would use....namely that society was born sinful and is ignorant of spiritual truth, that the whole scenario was preordained and that Jesus Christ broke this curse from society.

Ringo writes:

Your predictions stem from a very narrow view of that proposed "reality". You seem to be assuming a fundamentalist reality in which Christians are the victims rather than the "saved".

Granted this is a narrow exclusive view. It is not a view that allows for the inclusion of multiple religions or even multiple beliefs of non religious critical thought.

Furthermore, for the sake of argument, I am assuming that there is but One God....that Jesus rose (or was raised by His Father) from the dead, and that there is One Holy Spirit that knocked a man named Saul off of his high horse and that Paul the Apostle actually wrote the NT Chapters as a message to humanity. This is in fact the central premise of my argument.

Lets use 1 Corinthians to start defending this premise.

1 Cor 1:1-2 writes:


1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ-their Lord and ours:

Paul is speaking to an immature and carnally minded group of people. These people have, however, become "saved". (we can discuss that concept in a seperate topic, if so desired...)

Finally, for the sake of argument, I am proposing that there are two basic groups of people...those with a natural mind (free from any form of indoctrination and/or salvation entirely)
and those whom, as seen earlier in this topic and whom I may quote from time to time, who have a transformed mind through the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 15:44-47 writes:

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.


Be forewarned...if any of you choose to argue, I will use this as a fallback position when discussing with you.

I am not judging anyone nor claiming anything apart from the premise that there are natural minds and "spiritually enlightened" minds....

1 Cor 5:12-13 writes:


12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

You are free to challenge my premise or furthering it...but keep in mind that scripture will be used.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : spellchek


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2013 11:14 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2013 2:14 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
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 Message 127 by ringo, posted 09-27-2013 12:09 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 591 (707373)
09-26-2013 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Thugpreacha
09-26-2013 5:29 AM


Re: Classic Topic
I thought I would comment on a couple of the statements that look more ridiculous.

1) People known as Christians would be made out to look as ignorant and stupid as possible. Much of it would be their own fault, for they would try and live as believers and as worldly people at the same time.

I submit that more of this would happen if Jesus and Satan were provably unreal, since the description of ignorance would be justified.

3) People who practiced and studied occult and ancient mystery religions would be quite intellectual and bemused by all of the hoopla over supernatural reality. They would consider it all an exercise in intellectual mystic states of achievement.

Again, this would seem to be something more likely to happen if Jesus were not real.

5) The Bible would be ridiculed and scorned for its fantasy, yet concepts such as alternative universes and the Tao of Physics would be reverently considered.

Again, there is no reason to believe this would increase with Jesus being real.

8) Anytime that the topic was brought up, people would attempt to either refute the basic message or distract attention from it.

Total crap. This would occur either way, and I expect it would happen on a more frequent basis if Jesus were not actually real. In fact this particular item makes the entire list suspect as being mere agenda.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2013 5:29 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2013 2:11 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12811
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 118 of 591 (707375)
09-26-2013 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by NoNukes
09-26-2013 2:04 PM


Re: Classic Topic
nonukes writes:

I submit that more of this would happen if Jesus and Satan were provably unreal, since the description of ignorance would be justified.

But why expose it? (or fight it)what motive would there be? In your mind, what threat does scripture pose for modern "enlightened" thought?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by NoNukes, posted 09-26-2013 2:04 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by NoNukes, posted 09-26-2013 4:51 PM Thugpreacha has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 591 (707376)
09-26-2013 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Thugpreacha
09-26-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Exclusive Premise
Catholic Scientist writes:

You've provided no reason why those things follow from the premise.


Good point. For the sake of argument, we will follow the oremise that a basic fundamentalist would use....namely that society was born sinful and is ignorant of spiritual truth, that the whole scenario was preordained and that Jesus Christ broke this curse from society.

Okay, whatever. But you still haven't provided an argument for why any of those items in your list would be true if Jesus and Satan were real.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2013 12:50 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 902
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 120 of 591 (707381)
09-26-2013 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Thugpreacha
09-26-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Exclusive Premise
I am not judging anyone nor claiming anything apart from the premise that there are natural minds and "spiritually enlightened" minds....

But by invoking this premise, aren't you in essence starting your argument with a logical fallacy of the False Dichotomy (or False Dilemma)?


"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2013 12:50 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Thugpreacha, posted 09-26-2013 10:55 PM Diomedes has responded

  
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