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Author Topic:   Missing link found: early jawed fish
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 1 of 15 (707338)
09-26-2013 12:09 PM


Here's a link to the news article
quote:
419-million-year-old armoured fish fossil resolves 'missing link' in evolution, scientists say
A team of scientists, including an Australian, have found a fossil of a 419-million-year-old ancient armoured fish, in what is being hailed as the most significant paleontological discovery in decades.
Palaeontologists say the fossilised fish, which was found in the suburbs of a city in south-west China, is probably the earliest creature with a recognisable jaw.
Hundreds of millions of years ago, fish known as Placoderms had armoured plates and dominated the oceans.
For years, the world's top evolutionary scientists thought Placoderms died out and then somehow modern fish evolved.
"The unknown question was where did modern fish fauna come from, who was their ancestor?" Professor Long said.
"This ancient fish called Entelognathus is the missing link because it shows that the extinct armoured Placoderms fishes, which dominated the seas, rivers and lakes of the world for 70 million years, actually were the ancestors to all the living fish on the planet today."
At the time of its existence, the fish lived in a warm tropical sea when China was a separate landmass to Asia.
Discovery calls for further research
Professor Long says the fossil dates to about 50 million years before fish became amphibious.
"This is a huge discovery for science, not just palaeontology," he said.
"This fish fills a gap between an extinct class of animals and the entire living fish fauna on the planet, which is 30,000 species.
"It's a huge discovery that fills a massive gap in our knowledge of the evolution of the first backboned animals."
The Chinese Academy of Science's Professor Zhu, who led the study, says the fossil's jaw looks a lot like those of modern fish.
She says this shows the Placoderm to be the ancestors of modern fish.
"It has a jaw similar to the modern fish, so we can see intermediary between Placoderms and modern fish or modern vertebrae," Professor Zhu said.
As well as in China, significant ancient fossils have also been found in Australia.
Professor Long says the Amadeus Basin, east of Alice Springs, is another place where scientists could unlock the mysteries of evolution.
"We think that the biggest gap in the whole of early vertebrate evolution, down the base of the whole tree, is gap between the jawless fishes and the first jawed fishes like these armoured Placoderms," he said.
"There hasn't been any transition intermediate fossil formed in that space yet found, but the oldest fossil fishes with bone occur right here in central Australia.
"I think a lot more searching needs to be done and we could find the answers to some of these really big questions right here in our own country."
The mainly Chinese research team includes an Australian former PhD student of Professor Long.
The study is published in the journal Nature today.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 12:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 13 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-26-2013 3:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 15 (707346)
09-26-2013 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by New Cat's Eye
09-26-2013 12:09 PM


Gotta question the reporter
Professor Long says the fossil dates to about 50 million years before fish became amphibious.
HUH? Is there a wrong word in there?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2013 12:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2013 12:35 PM jar has replied
 Message 4 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2013 12:39 PM jar has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 3 of 15 (707347)
09-26-2013 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
09-26-2013 12:34 PM


Re: Gotta question the reporter
Wiki says "The first major groups of amphibians developed in the Devonian period, around 370 million years ago, from lobe-finned fish similar to the modern coelacanth..." so 370 million + 50 million seems about right for the age of this find.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 12:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 12:44 PM Coyote has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 15 (707348)
09-26-2013 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by jar
09-26-2013 12:34 PM


Re: Gotta question the reporter
Professor Long says the fossil dates to about 50 million years before fish became amphibious.
HUH? Is there a wrong word in there?
I'm not seeing it. Which word are you referring to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 12:34 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 15 (707350)
09-26-2013 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coyote
09-26-2013 12:35 PM


Re: Gotta question the reporter
But lobe-finned fish already had jaws. Weren't there even earlier jawed fish like Placoderms and weren't they even further back than 420 million years ago?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2013 12:35 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2013 12:57 PM jar has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 6 of 15 (707352)
09-26-2013 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
09-26-2013 12:44 PM


Re: Gotta question the reporter
According to Wiki, you are correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 12:44 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 1:05 PM Coyote has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 15 (707355)
09-26-2013 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coyote
09-26-2013 12:57 PM


Re: Gotta question the reporter
Amazing.
I was shooting from memory which is often wrong, but I still think it is most likely that that sentence in the article is likely just the reporter misunderstanding of what was actually said or taken out of context.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2013 12:57 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2013 1:07 PM jar has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 8 of 15 (707356)
09-26-2013 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-26-2013 1:05 PM


Re: Gotta question the reporter
I read it differently.
I read the sentence to mean that amphibians developed some 50 million years after this find.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 1:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 1:20 PM Coyote has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 15 (707360)
09-26-2013 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Coyote
09-26-2013 1:07 PM


Re: Gotta question the reporter
But they are dating this find at 419 million years ago.
How does that jibe with there being earlier jawed fish?
What do amphibians have to do with when recognizable jaws first appeared?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2013 1:07 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2013 1:35 PM jar has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 10 of 15 (707367)
09-26-2013 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
09-26-2013 1:20 PM


Re: Gotta question the reporter
Your initial quote from the article was:
Professor Long says the fossil dates to about 50 million years before fish became amphibious.
It seems that this is correct.
Perhaps you pulled a quote other than you intended for that post? As it does seem that jawed fish were already known from that time period and somewhat earlier?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 1:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 09-26-2013 1:40 PM Coyote has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 15 (707370)
09-26-2013 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coyote
09-26-2013 1:35 PM


Re: Gotta question the reporter
No, I still don't see how that connects to the story. It is just part of the issues with the story as posted and as I said, I get the feeling that the reporter got lots out of context or misrepresented.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Coyote, posted 09-26-2013 1:35 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9503
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 12 of 15 (707382)
09-26-2013 3:02 PM


I really wish they wouldn't scream 'missing link' everytime an important new fossil is found - it gives totally the wrong impression of what evolution is.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4407
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 13 of 15 (707384)
09-26-2013 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by New Cat's Eye
09-26-2013 12:09 PM


"This ancient fish called Entelognathus is the missing link because it shows that the extinct armoured Placoderms fishes, which dominated the seas, rivers and lakes of the world for 70 million years, actually were the ancestors to all the living fish on the planet today."
I wonder if this is actually a quote from one of the scientists involved or a misunderstanding by the reporter. This fossil may have jaw features that are transitional, but there is no way to know if it is "the ancestor of all modern fishes".
I can understand a scientist saying something like that to a reporter to emphasize how import and exciting this new find is, and thinking that the reporter actually understands that this is an exaggeration like his scientist colleagues would understand it.
Have seen this kind of situation when I and some of my fellow dragonfly specialists talk to reporters. When we say that Tanypteryx hageni is a "living fossil" it means one thing to us and something different to the reporter and so may convey a completely erroneous meaning to the reader.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2013 12:09 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2013 4:04 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 14 of 15 (707385)
09-26-2013 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tanypteryx
09-26-2013 3:45 PM


Yeah, you're right, that's just how science reporting works:
Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-26-2013 3:45 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1043 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 15 of 15 (707407)
09-27-2013 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tanypteryx
09-26-2013 3:45 PM


I wonder if this is actually a quote from one of the scientists involved or a misunderstanding by the reporter. This fossil may have jaw features that are transitional, but there is no way to know if it is "the ancestor of all modern fishes".
That's not a misquote at all, you've just misread it. Nowhere does it say that this fish in particular is the ancestor of modern fishes. It says that placoderms are the ancestors of modern fishes. Just like someone might point to a feathered dinosaur fossil and present it as strong evidence that dinosaurs are the ancestors of birds, without implying that this particular fossil is a bird ancestor.
If you want the article's misquote, then you should be looking at this one:
quote:
"It has a jaw similar to the modern fish, so we can see intermediary between Placoderms and modern fish or modern vertebrae,"
I suspect Professor Zhu said 'vertebrates', rather than 'vertebrae'. Although we could be generous to the reporter and blame on it on the Professor's English skills.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tanypteryx, posted 09-26-2013 3:45 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
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