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Author Topic:   Relevance of origins to modern science
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 76 of 124 (707658)
09-30-2013 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by NoNukes
09-27-2013 11:12 AM


Hi Nonukes,
I wouldn't argue that the age of the earth would discredit a extra-dimensional Creator. However, to say that there is no extra-dimensional creator since science refutes the existence of a God is a more of statement that I would base my thought on.
If it is true, I would be so offended by the idea that I was living in submission to a God doesn't exist. I would most likely resort to living a self centered life with no purpose except the "do whatever feels good" principle and I wouldn't be interested in science. Don't get me wrong there are many who live this way regardless of there religious affiliation. For those, who choose that hope, have something more than survival, or self-made purpose to live for.
I have come to understand that those who believe there is no God is as diverse in belief as you get. I can imagine that one man can hold his own unique morals and principles and have a unique denomination of atheism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 09-27-2013 11:12 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Pressie, posted 09-30-2013 7:15 AM Ra3MaN has replied
 Message 80 by NoNukes, posted 09-30-2013 1:18 PM Ra3MaN has replied

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 77 of 124 (707660)
09-30-2013 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
09-29-2013 9:56 AM


I would understand why Ra3MaN might be very resistant to my approach because *he* believes I'm telling him his religious beliefs are wrong.
That is a good observation, and I am sure it is the case with most people. My girlfriend is resistant to my beliefs, because she has done things that way her whole life. I can't say the same, my beliefs have changed a lot up until this point. So I question what I believe, I base my beliefs about the world on numerous encounters that i have had on a spiritual level, and subsequently sought scriptural explanation...
So, I am not resistant because of whether you have offended me or not, I am resistant because of my personal observations/experiences. These encounters have shared by a number of other individuals. which i have inferred it to be a certain God based on how well it meets the scriptural account.
Telling Ra3MaN that his concerns about science have nothing to with spirituality is not telling him his religious beliefs are wrong. It's only telling him he has some mistaken notions and that his attention is not focused on what's important.
I agree with sds, a religious practice is a (counter)measure performed as a result of you religious beliefs and affiliations.
e.g. Subsequent to an act of immorality, one could confess to a religious leader, he forgives, and that person, religiously believes he/she is forgiven because they performed the religious practice.
If spiritual beliefs and religious beliefs is truly different, can science prove the existence of a spirit? if not what would be the point of having both a spiritual and science based perception of the world? This, being regardless if it is positive thinking, or a God the we submit to.
Edited by Ra3MaN, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 09-29-2013 9:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 09-30-2013 8:59 AM Ra3MaN has replied

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 83 of 124 (707768)
10-01-2013 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by NoNukes
09-30-2013 1:18 PM


Ok, you all are correct then. But I think the idea of God and science cannot be simultaneously held comes from the mouths of Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins, etc., who combine their love for Science with a hatred for deity. They often attack the idea that God exists (Lawrence has eased off a bit though).
As you may know, both of these people are prominent figures in the public eye and could likely be the source of most of the Atheist, Abiogeneisis views.
Does it really encourage free thinking to hold the same views as someone who has convinced you, without investigating yourself? Or is it not just indoctrination (for lack of a better word)?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2013 4:04 AM Ra3MaN has replied
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 Message 103 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 9:50 AM Ra3MaN has replied

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 84 of 124 (707769)
10-01-2013 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Percy
09-30-2013 8:59 AM


I understand. Many people, including myself have personal experience, which may not convince you, but it really convinced me.
I would argue in that same way, individual scientists have observed/experienced phenomenon based on an experiment they have designed, and then they give an account for what they have seen. Media naturally goes crazy with new ideas and tell the public often crazy things. Subsequently, the public who mostly have no understanding of "why", accept what was told to them and ultimately believe blindly... so there is no difference between the theistic and Atheistic believer (with a small percentage of people, who actually know what they are talking about).
What are your thoughts on that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Percy, posted 09-30-2013 8:59 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Pressie, posted 10-01-2013 4:57 AM Ra3MaN has replied
 Message 120 by Percy, posted 10-02-2013 8:59 AM Ra3MaN has not replied

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 85 of 124 (707770)
10-01-2013 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Pressie
09-30-2013 7:15 AM


Read my message 83.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Pressie, posted 09-30-2013 7:15 AM Pressie has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 89 of 124 (707776)
10-01-2013 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Tangle
10-01-2013 4:04 AM


...he's not the founder of some atheistic sect. And what has abiogenesis got to do with atheism?
that may be, but like you said he is a voice, and people follow. Aboigenisis is a belief that Atheists can hold. In my experience I have heard Atheists say that they couldn't care less about where they came form. Thus atheist could be more denominational then some of the major religions, due to the huge varieties of theories to choose from.
Where's the inoctrination? Where are the atheist schools and churches?
Government has/is eliminating religion, faith from schools - Atheistic (non-belief) based teaching.
An article of the Atheist church. Atheism starts its megachurch: Is it a religion now? | Salon.com
there are a number of articles, do a web search.
The laws will develop as they feel the need to unify/diverge in beliefs...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2013 4:04 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 90 of 124 (707777)
10-01-2013 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Pressie
10-01-2013 4:57 AM


That is an observation, which led to an inference... See the link in message 89

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Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 92 of 124 (707779)
10-01-2013 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Tangle
10-01-2013 5:56 AM


Please don't try to compare religious beliefs to scientific hypothesis - it's wrong-headed
These are entirely off topic.....
I singled out scientific hypothesis. What about moral standards held between atheists e.g. lying, stealing, polygamy etc. What about speaker preference? Activities? Drugs? sexual orientation? Education? violence?
Doesn't being Atheist mean that you can hold you own e.g. moral standards, as a result of there being no God? Won't this impact how you see everything else?
What do you think an Atheistic world will look like? (maybe this should be a new topic...)

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 10-01-2013 8:29 AM Ra3MaN has replied
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2013 9:09 AM Ra3MaN has replied
 Message 104 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 9:56 AM Ra3MaN has replied
 Message 114 by ringo, posted 10-01-2013 12:42 PM Ra3MaN has seen this message but not replied
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 Message 116 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-01-2013 3:52 PM Ra3MaN has seen this message but not replied
 Message 121 by Percy, posted 10-02-2013 9:07 AM Ra3MaN has not replied
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Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 96 of 124 (707786)
10-01-2013 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
10-01-2013 8:29 AM


What about them?
I just wanted to point out that people are divided by more that Religious beliefs.
Maybe you could get, polygamist Atheists vs monogamist Atheists, Genocide approving Atheists vs non-... It may happen that the Harvard university Atheists can't get along with the Oxford University Atheists because of their University affiliation... I agree that Atheism won't change how the world came out, and yet there will still be conflict.
Additional attributes that cause division/war, is greed, land-grabbing, corruption... Yes, Religion causes people to do crazy things, but so does non-religious things, like Science, consumer mentality etc....
Why should an atheist have a different view on...
Do you live differently from a religious person? I asked one Atheist about what keeps him motivated to do life. His answer: Personal fitness. Where as the religious or spiritual person would live according to the doctrine of their Belief. I would like to know what drives you to continue your existence? (if you want you can message me)

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Replies to this message:
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Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 100 of 124 (707791)
10-01-2013 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by NoNukes
10-01-2013 9:09 AM


Think about what you are actually asking here? Are you suggesting that you chose not to be gay or go to do drugs because you thought you might go to hell?
It is a challenge. I suggested the possibility of Atheist divergence/denomination on the basis of including their sexual orientation, diet, abortion views, Drug habits, education level etc. This in the same way that religious denominations oppose one another as a result of different religious practices/beliefs. It was not a "you might go to hell" threat.
As far as education is concerned, did you see any atheists with you at college?
To be honest I haven't found any Atheist without internet access hehehe... In my University we could get along quite well without ever mentioning our beliefs about the world, faith, religion etc., unless prompted to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by NoNukes, posted 10-01-2013 9:09 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 101 of 124 (707792)
10-01-2013 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
10-01-2013 9:21 AM


Re: Wrong yet again.
Wrong yet again.
It may happen that the Harvard university Atheists can't get along with the Oxford University Atheists because of their University affiliation
Do you know who John Harvard was?
You should also look up the Permanent Private Halls of Oxford University as well as the origin of the Colleges of Oxford.
That is not my argument.
For an alternate example, The animal-rights Atheist may disagree with the animal-cruelty condoning Atheist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 9:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 9:41 AM Ra3MaN has replied

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 105 of 124 (707801)
10-01-2013 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
10-01-2013 9:41 AM


Re: Wrong yet again.
Your point is moot though. If you substitute the word theist for atheist the sentence makes the same sense.
You have succeeded in seeing my point. Read message 95 & 96. Wars and damage to society is cannot be attributed to religion alone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 10-01-2013 9:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 10:03 AM Ra3MaN has not replied
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Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 109 of 124 (707807)
10-01-2013 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Theodoric
10-01-2013 9:50 AM


So advocating and encouraging religious views is perfectly fine, but doing the same with nonreligious views is not?
I am not saying that.
What one is indoctrinating?
both, that is what makes persisting views so amazing. Also, it is why Atheism should be considered to be a faith-based sect (by Atheists), because it opposes religion directly. see the Atheist Church movement...
You certainly seem to be suffering from Christian Persecution Syndrome.
?
There are a lot of atheists that have very strong disagreements with dawkins.
Exactly, see message 100:
I suggested the possibility of Atheist divergence/denomination on the basis of including [Atheist's] sexual orientation, diet, abortion views, Drug habits, education level etc.
Secondly, WTF does Abiogenesis have to do with atheism?
See message 92
I singled out scientific hypothesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 9:50 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 10:23 AM Ra3MaN has not replied

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 110 of 124 (707809)
10-01-2013 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Theodoric
10-01-2013 9:56 AM


You are insulting as well as ignorant
I apologize I don't mean to come across as insulting nor arrogant. Please point out my arrogance, so that i may edit my phrasing.
What group is more represented in the prison population? Atheists or religious?
not sure...
What group is most known for advocating polygamy? Atheists or a religion based in Utah?
not sure...
I am familiar with Gauteng area of SA. Unfortunately, the fundies hold incredible sway there.
I am not sure what you are implying with this statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 9:56 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2013 10:25 AM Ra3MaN has replied

  
Ra3MaN
Member (Idle past 558 days)
Posts: 31
From: Pretoria, Gauteng, South Africa
Joined: 09-23-2013


Message 117 of 124 (707911)
10-02-2013 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Theodoric
10-01-2013 10:25 AM


Maybe you should research before you spout crap?
You are correct. I am busy developing my writing style and I am inexperienced in online debates so please be patient with me.
You obviously have been indoctrinated by the fundies of that area.
I don't think so, maybe you can belief this about me: I am very skeptical about other peoples beliefs and like to test the validity of their beliefs before I incorporate/change what i believe.
I am from Cape Town, South Africa, I only recently moved up here. Therefore you are incorrect and I don't think you are qualified to diagnose me ...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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