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Author Topic:   A Minimalist Bible
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 16 of 58 (708364)
10-09-2013 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
10-05-2013 12:53 PM


Thos Jefferson already did a version of a Minimalist Bible, in his case leaving out all the supernatural parts. Everybody wants to write their own Bible instead of submitting to the one God gave us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 10-05-2013 12:53 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 10-09-2013 2:18 AM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 17 of 58 (708367)
10-09-2013 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
10-09-2013 12:34 AM


Faith writes:
Thos Jefferson already did a version of a Minimalist Bible, in his case leaving out all the supernatural parts. Everybody wants to write their own Bible instead of submitting to the one God gave us.
Understanding the Bible in the way that I have outlined does not preclude miracles. What it does do is to cause one to look critically at what the authors wrote about the one essential miracle which is of course the resurrection. It is my contention that if one is open theistic beliefs that the most obvious answer is that when the Gospels are read critically that the bodily resurrection of Jesus is an historical event. If that is correct it would certainly give credence to the possibility of the other miracles.
Christianity does not require an inerrant Bible. Actually in the end, all of Christianity hangs on the bodily resurrection of Jesus. If there is no resurrection then Christianity is nothing more than a fable built around a social movement. If God resurrected Jesus then does it really matter whether or not there was a world wide flood, or whether there the world is 6000 years old or not etc. It seems to me that God is saying that we should put our faith in what Jesus had to say, and not in an inerrant Bible.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 10-09-2013 12:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 10-09-2013 3:30 AM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 58 (708369)
10-09-2013 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by GDR
10-09-2013 2:18 AM


Christianity does require an inerrant Bible, and we have one in the King James, the others being corrupted in various ways unfortunately. Great men of the faith for the last two thousand years but certainly since the Reformation have defended the inerrant God-inspired Bible.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 17 by GDR, posted 10-09-2013 2:18 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 10-09-2013 9:11 AM Faith has replied
 Message 20 by frako, posted 10-09-2013 9:28 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-09-2013 9:53 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 10-12-2013 1:09 AM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 19 of 58 (708381)
10-09-2013 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
10-09-2013 3:30 AM


Faith writes:
Christianity does require an inerrant Bible, and we have one in the King James, the others being corrupted in various ways unfortunately. Great men of the faith for the last two thousand years but certainly since the Reformation have defended the inerrant God-inspired Bible.
Great men of faith have defended and died for king and country. That hardly meant that their king or country were inerrant. If you are going to defend an inerrant Bible then I suggest you need to come at it from a different angle than that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 10-09-2013 3:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 10-09-2013 2:58 PM GDR has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 20 of 58 (708382)
10-09-2013 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
10-09-2013 3:30 AM


Christianity does require an inerrant Bible, and we have one in the King James, the others being corrupted in various ways unfortunately. Great men of the faith for the last two thousand years but certainly since the Reformation have defended the inerrant God-inspired Bible.
So the whole 2 pigeons killing one and using the other to sprinkle the blood of the first over you to cure leprosy is true???

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 21 of 58 (708385)
10-09-2013 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
10-09-2013 3:30 AM


Christianity does require an inerrant Bible
Do you have a teaching from Jesus that suggests that?

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 Message 18 by Faith, posted 10-09-2013 3:30 AM Faith has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 22 of 58 (708402)
10-09-2013 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by GDR
10-08-2013 6:06 PM


Re: Importance requires validity
GDR writes:
His message was that in the end it isn’t about swords but about changing hearts.
An excellent message.
But we don't know it was "His" message, do we? We don't know it was from Jesus/God.
If there are limitations on God... then yes, it may be from God. But also maybe not. Perhaps it was just a message created by some men at that time.
The point is that the message Jesus espoused rings true with what we know.
An excellent reason to follow the message.
Not a reason at all to follow Jesus.
Maybe it's Jesus' message.
Maybe it's not.
We don't know.
So if the message of Jesus has proven to be reliable then it gives credence to the idea that God would honour and validate this message.
This doesn't make any sense at all. Your conclusion doesn't follow in any way from your premise.
"If the message of Jesus has proven to be reliable.."
...then all it gives credence to is the idea that the message is reliable.
It doesn't tell us anything at all about the source of the message.
You claim the source is from Jesus.
You claim the source is from God.
You also claim that God isn't all-powerful.
You haven't shown any idea that points positively in the direction that God provided this message.
Sure, it could be from God, as you say.
Sure, it could be from the more-powerful-being that is holding God captive, as you neglect.
Sure, it could be from humans without any intervention from God at all, as you neglect.
Sure, it could be from some other animal we have yet to understand, as you neglect.
Nothing you say directs us to the claim you make and away from the other claims.
This is why there is absolutely no credence at all "to the idea that God would honour and validate this message."
It's just a claim, the same as all the other claims that don't contradict anything about the world the way it is today.
There's no way to test it, and no way to know if it's true or not.
This confirms that there's absolutely zero credence to the claim you're trying to push forward.
The Christian belief is that God did that by resurrecting Jesus.
This is very true.
Lots of people believe many things.
In the end it is a matter of trust and faith but I contend it is much more than simply blind faith to believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus.
You do claim that it is much more than simply blind faith.
What you've failed to do is show how it is more than simply blind faith in any way.
As long as we can't show the distinction between "from God" vs. "from the more-powerful-being that is holding God captive" vs. "from humans" for the claims you make, then yes, it simply is blind faith to pick one of those options as "the one." What else could it be?
Exactly, except it is anything but sterile. ... we are to find our joy in our kindness to others. We are to love kindness when we experience it not only in our own lives but also when we see kindness being exhibited by others.
I've never said that this idea was sterile. In fact, I've stated a few times now that this is a fantastic concept and we should continue to build upon it.
What I keep saying is sterile is your claim that this idea comes from God.
Maybe it does.
Maybe it doesn't.
There's nothing to distinguish this message as "from God" vs. "from the more-powerful-being that is holding God captive" vs. "from humans."
Therefore, the idea that it is "from God" is sterile.
The concept itself is widely known.
It's well known and well studied and progress is being made on the human ability to find joy in our kindness to others.
We are called to have Faith, without certainty, that the message of love, kindness, justice and humility should be the motivation for how we live our lives, regardless of how imperfectly we follow through. I contend that view is anything but sterile.
Perhaps, but faith and uncertainty isn't required for this concept.
We can show (and it has been shown) through studies of human culture that the message of love, kindness, justice and humility improves our lifestyles. Again, I've never said this is sterile.
What is sterile is the idea that this message comes from God.
Perhaps you are called to have faith that this message comes from God. Because it very well may not.
I would also add that we shouldn’t require certainty anyway as even if the account of the resurrection is wrong then shouldn’t we as humans with an evolutionary past be evolving towards that world view anyway?
Of course we should be moving toward the world view of finding joy in our kindness to others... we have studied this phenomenon and we can show that it is useful and beneficial to us.
We should not, however, move towards the world view that this idea "comes from God" because progress in that way is sterile because we don't know if it's "from God" vs. "from the more-powerful-being that is holding God captive" vs. "from humans."
But we can look back over the centuries and see that what Jesus espoused holds true in life, so there is no reason not to have confidence even without certainty.
Exactly. We can have plenty of confidence in the message itself because we can show it to be true throughout human history and society in our present time.
There's just no reason to indicate that it's from Jesus or God. Humans have been trying to show that to be true for thousands of years. No progress yet. Sterile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by GDR, posted 10-08-2013 6:06 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 10-09-2013 6:37 PM Stile has replied
 Message 31 by GDR, posted 10-09-2013 11:34 PM Stile has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 58 (708403)
10-09-2013 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by GDR
10-09-2013 9:11 AM


You trample on the history of those who died for the Bible, to bring the Bible to the common people when the Roman Church opposed it, persecuting and killing them for it. You trivialize their courage by comparing them with those who die for king and country. But I'm sure that's OK with you. They were all ignoramuses compared with you, who feel you have the right and the ability to choose what is true in the Bible and condemn the rest.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by GDR, posted 10-09-2013 9:11 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 10-09-2013 3:08 PM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 24 of 58 (708404)
10-09-2013 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
10-09-2013 2:58 PM


It was a wonderful thing that those men did in risking and giving their lives to bring the Bible to the common man. But that tells us nothing about how the Bible is to be understood.
Here is a history of how inerrancy came about. by C S Cowles.
quote:
Prominent evangelical scholar J. I. Packer defines `inerrant’ as not misleading or being misled, or not deceiving or being deceived. This was how it was used in the Church until the 19th century, and how Nazarene theologians understand its use in Article IV today: that is, the Bible can be trusted not to mislead us relative to all things necessary to our salvation. If this moral rather than technical understanding had prevailed, then the word would have incited little controversy.
Unfortunately, Protestant Fundamentalists loaded up an inherently benign word with claims about the Bible that it does not make about itself, and that do not accord with either its contents or purposes. Nearly three hundred evangelical theologians and biblical scholarsmostly from within the Calvinistic theological traditiongathered in Chicago in 1978 to establish the Council on Biblical Inerrancy. Out of it came the famous Chicago Statement which built upon these fundamental propositions:
The Bible, being wholly and verbally God given, is without error or fault in all of its teaching in not only its witness to God’s saving grace in individual lives, but in all matters of that which it speaks, not only in the whole but in every part. . . . The Holy Spirit [is] Scripture’s divine author. . . . We affirm the unity and internal consistency of Scripture. . . . We affirm that what Scripture says, God says.
Inerrancy’s logic is deceptively simple. God verbally dictated the Bible. God does not lie. Therefore every word in the Bible is true.
That God verbally dictated the Bible, however, is not derived from the Scriptures but from John Calvin’s (1509-1564) theology of Divine Determinism. Calvin built his theological edifice on the foundation of God’s absolute sovereignty to the total exclusion of human agency or free will. God, he wrote, who is creator of all so regulates all things that nothing takes place without his deliberation. All events are governed by God's secret plan in such a way that nothing happens except what is knowingly and willingly decreed by him. This applies not only to every human being whose every act was predetermined and eternal destiny was predestined long before they were born, but of course to everything in the Bible. Because God is righteous and perfect, then every word in the Bible must of necessity be righteous and perfect as well.
Inerrancy’s seductiveand dangerousappeal lies in that it offers believers something physical and tangible, a secure `rock’ upon which to build their faith in a turbulent and scary sea of religious pluralism and secular relativism. The Catholics have their infallible Pope, Muslims their infallible Qur’an, and inerrantists their infallible Bible.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Add blank lines in quote.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 10-09-2013 2:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 10-09-2013 3:56 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 25 of 58 (708405)
10-09-2013 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by GDR
10-09-2013 3:08 PM


Not dictated by God? Claims the Bible does not make about itself? What do they do with 2 Timothy 3:16:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
ALL scripture... GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD. Some translations say "God-breathed."

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 Message 24 by GDR, posted 10-09-2013 3:08 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-09-2013 4:08 PM Faith has replied
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 Message 49 by herebedragons, posted 10-12-2013 9:05 AM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 58 (708406)
10-09-2013 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Faith
10-09-2013 3:56 PM


Being inspired by God is not being verbally dictated to by God.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Faith, posted 10-09-2013 3:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 10-09-2013 5:31 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 10-09-2013 6:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 58 (708411)
10-09-2013 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by New Cat's Eye
10-09-2013 4:08 PM


Being inspired by God is not being verbally dictated to by God.
You are using the word "inspired" in a casual sense; in the accurate sense it's the equivalent of God's dictating the original Greek and Hebrew. "The WORD of the Lord came to me" say the prophets. Not the concept of the Lord, the general idea of the Lord, but the WORD of the Lord.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 28 of 58 (708412)
10-09-2013 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by New Cat's Eye
10-09-2013 4:08 PM


Inspiration
Being inspired by God means that it comes from Him and not from our own vain imaginations.

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 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-09-2013 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 58 (708413)
10-09-2013 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stile
10-09-2013 2:10 PM


Re: Importance requires validity
Stile writes:
Sure, it could be from God, as you say.
Sure, it could be from the more-powerful-being that is holding God captive, as you neglect.
Sure, it could be from humans without any intervention from God at all, as you neglect.
Sure, it could be from some other animal we have yet to understand, as you neglect.
I believe that human nature always seeks to be the "more-powerful being.
Anything that we don't understand is by definition something that we humans can't control. It is in our nature to deny God precisely because we cant control Him.

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 Message 22 by Stile, posted 10-09-2013 2:10 PM Stile has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 58 (708418)
10-09-2013 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
10-09-2013 6:34 PM


Re: Inspiration
Being inspired by God means that it comes from Him and not from our own vain imaginations.
Exactly, Phat. And if you get into the word "inspired" which is sometimes literally translated "God-breathed" you can find that scripture comments on itself as actually being alive. When God breathed into Adam He breathed LIFE into Him, His own supernatural life, so to say He breathed the Word is to say it came forth living with His own life. And believers feel this active life in the Word of God.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick [alive], and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This message is a reply to:
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