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Author Topic:   Are we all descendants of Adam and Eve?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 256 of 376 (710213)
11-03-2013 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by jaywill
11-03-2013 8:30 AM


Re: First man?
Club Christian and the Christian Cult of Ignorance are not synonymous.
And as usual, you simply deny reality and facts. Roman Catholics do not worship Mary. That is just a falsehood indoctrinated in the Christian Cult of Ignorance.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:30 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 257 of 376 (710215)
11-03-2013 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Tangle
11-03-2013 8:41 AM


Re: First man?
You won't find me talking much about the bible, I have very little interest in it.
Then get out of the Bible Study Forum already. Go nourish your alternative beliefs in one of the pseudo science rooms.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Tangle, posted 11-03-2013 8:41 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Tangle, posted 11-03-2013 10:38 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 261 by AZPaul3, posted 11-03-2013 7:44 PM jaywill has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 258 of 376 (710217)
11-03-2013 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by jaywill
11-03-2013 8:30 AM


Re: First man?
You before boasted how devout you are as a Christian. So you apparently want to be considered in the "Club."
Not all Christians, by far, are in the Christian Club of Ignorance. The CCI consists of people such as yourself dedicated to denying pretty much all of reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:30 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:35 PM JonF has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 259 of 376 (710221)
11-03-2013 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by jaywill
11-03-2013 8:46 AM


Re: First man?
jaywill writes:
Then get out of the Bible Study Forum already. Go nourish your alternative beliefs in one of the pseudo science rooms.
Sorry dear can't oblige, I'll be pointing out biblical nonsense whenever it's necessary and it's very necessary when the topic is "are we descended from adam and eve."
I also said I won't comment much, not never. The Bible is a single short book which is extremely easy to understand - it has to be, it was written for illiterate, uneducated, bronze age peasants - rocket science it ain't.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:46 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:44 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 11-04-2013 10:13 AM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 260 of 376 (710234)
11-03-2013 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by jaywill
11-03-2013 8:22 AM


Re: First man?
jaywill writes:
The cataclysmic impact of this man's life and words on human history is exceedingly powerful.
Actually, the impact of people who believed in His life was substantial. So was the impact of Genghis Khan, who believed in other gods. So was the impact of Alexander, who believed in other gods.
The impact that people have does not necessarily reflect on the accuracy of their beliefs.
jaywill writes:
That's curious for someone finding the Bible a waste of time on various subjects
I've never said that the Bible was a waste of time. I said that it's a waste of time to discuss whether or not we are all descendents of Adam and Eve.
jaywill writes:
The New Testament doesn't read anything like Treasure Island. One is obviously a good story of fiction and the other is four biographies (three by eyewitnesses) of someone you'd be a fool to surmise never lived.
You've already demonstrated poor reading comprehension in this very post. I don't think I'll take your word for what "reads like" fiction and what doesn't.
And you'd be a fool to assume that the gospel writers actually lived just because their stories say they did. Treasure Island has exactly the same basis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:22 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:20 PM ringo has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 261 of 376 (710241)
11-03-2013 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by jaywill
11-03-2013 8:46 AM


Re: First man?
AZPaul3 writes:
I have referred you to the most popular biology textbook of that time period.
(snip)
"... lightening struck on a pool of primordial soup and, presto, the first living micro organism came into being ..."
WAS NOT offered as the hypothesis, and that this is a misreading, misunderstanding or deliberate misrepresentation of the hypothesis that:
molecules in a primordial soup, under the influence of lightning PROBABLY caused the formation of the FIRST LIVING THING. That first living thing NOT being a fully formed micro-organism.
Can you present a similar level of evidence showing I was wrong?
Show me this evolution-friendly science-based textbook of that time period that says differently.
So, jaywill, got anything?
I'm not going to get an answer, am I.
Am I?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:46 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 262 of 376 (710242)
11-03-2013 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by ringo
11-03-2013 1:31 PM


Re: First man?
Actually, the impact of people who believed in His life was substantial.
We consider the impact of people like Saul of Tarsus [Paul] who went from a vehement opposer and persecutor of the new "cult" to one of its strongest teachers.
What happened to him can be discovered by reading his own words. For example the book of Galatians, or the letters to Timothy or Second Corinthians. As a strict Pharisee brought up under a renown teacher Gamaliel he somehow dramatically changed the course of his life 180 degrees.
quote:
According to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted. I give thanks to Him who empowers me, Christ Jesus our Lord, that He has counted me faithful, appointing me to the ministry,
Who formerly was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insulting person; but I was shown mercy because, being ignorant, I acted in unbelief ..." (1 tom. 1:12,13)

He acted ignorantly and in unbelief, like you. We hope God will have mercy on you too.
Being a strict Pharisee Paul would never blaspheme Yahweh. Now he writes the formerly he was a blasphemer. The indication is that Paul now realizes that his words against Jesus Christ were words against God Himself. He now believes that Jesus Christ is God become a man.
quote:
"For you have heard of my manner of life formerly in Judaism, that I persecuted the church of God excessively and ravaged it. And I advanced in Judaism beyond many contemporaries in my race, being more abundantly a zealot for the traditions of my fathers.
But when it pleased God, who set be apart from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me that I might preach Him among the nations, ... etc." (Gal. 1:13-16a)

And Paul became an apostle and co-worker with the elder apostles Peter, James, and John. And he was at first thought to be a spy. But his reputation grew among the local churches -
quote:
" Now concerning the things which I am writing to you, behold, before God, I am not lying.
Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia
[after meeting with the apostle Peter in Jerusalem after a three year exile in Arabia and return to Damascus. He visited Peter for fifteen days. (v.18) ] Yet I was still unknown by face to the churches of Judea, which are in Christ.
But they only heard this: He who was formerly persecuting us is now announcing as the gospel the faith which formerly he ravaged. And they glorified God because of me." (vs.20-24)

This man laid quite a foundation for the Christian church for centuries to come in that 13 or so New Testament books that he authored. Even skepetical scholars regard Galatians which I have just quoted as Pauline.
The impact that people have does not necessarily reflect on the accuracy of their beliefs.
That definitely goes for Charles Darwin.
jaywill writes:
That's curious for someone finding the Bible a waste of time on various subjects
I've never said that the Bible was a waste of time. I said that it's a waste of time to discuss whether or not we are all descendents of Adam and Eve.
All being descendents of Adam and Eve is part of the "various subjects" above.
You've already demonstrated poor reading comprehension in this very post. I don't think I'll take your word for what "reads like" fiction and what doesn't.
Your own is highly questionable in that you couldn't understand that "various subjects" included among others the subject under discussion here - the descendents of Adam and Eve.
And you'd be a fool to assume that the gospel writers actually lived just because their stories say they did. Treasure Island has exactly the same basis.
That's your lunacy and hyper conspiracy paranoia. It would take more "faith" to follow your elaborate explanation of who was behind the "fictional" evangelists.
But then you'd be hard pressed to explain the whole rise of the Christian church from the Jewish nation in such a brief time.
Shortly after the death of Jesus the spread of the message of Him having risen from the dead grew rapidly within a period of maybe twenty years. It reached Caesar's palace in Rome. It overwhelmed competing ideologies and saturated the entire Roman Empire in spite of the ferocious state persecution.
Eventually Constantine decided that if Rome couldn't beat them they might as well join them.
C.F.D. Moule, a Cambridge New Testament scholar wrote - "If the coming into existence of the Nazarenes, a phenomenon undeniably attested to by the New Testament, rips a great hole in history, a hole the size and shape of Resurrection, what does the secular historian propose to stop it up with?"
The best explanation is that the resurrection of Jesus did take place. It revolutionized the lives of James and Saul, both former skeptics. It radically changed the social structure cherished by Jews for centuries.
Five weeks after Jesus is crucified, over ten thousand Jews are following Him and claiming His to be the initiator of a new religion. They are mysteriously willing to give up institutions that they have been reared on since childhood to believe a rabbi from the lower class has performed a miracle of coming back to life after crucifixion.
Animals sacrifices that they have performed yearly for atonement of their sins, they now abandon under the persuasion that a carpenter has died ONCE AND FOR ALL for their sins for their eternal forgiveness. God attesting to accepting the offer by raising Him from the dead.
The centuries old belief in one monotheistic God now becomes a proclamation of God as Father - Son - Holy Spirit.
The obedience to the Law of Moses, which separated Jews from all pagan nations suddenly takes a turn. Within a short time after Jesus death, Jews were beginning to say that one doesn't become an upstanding member of the community merely by Keeping Moses' law. Justification before God rests in believing in this carpenter turned rabbi, Who proclaimed Himself - the Son of God.
Also within a short time the centuries old Jewish practice of Saturday Sabbath keeping is superseded by a worship on the first day of the week to commemorate the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.
Suddenly the concept of a Messiah general crushing the Roman imperialists becomes to a sizable group of Jews, the realization of a suffering Messiah who died for the sins of the whole world.
How can you explain why in such a short time, not just one Jew but an entire community of at least ten thousand Jews in Jerusalem, were willing to drop such firmly established traditions and practices ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by ringo, posted 11-03-2013 1:31 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by ringo, posted 11-04-2013 10:47 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 263 of 376 (710243)
11-03-2013 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by JonF
11-03-2013 9:32 AM


Re: First man?
The CCI consists of people such as yourself dedicated to denying pretty much all of reality.
JonF, Why are you here in this universe ? What's the most real thing to you ?
Just give me one succinct explanation of why your heart beats and you breath - WHY are you alive in this universe ?
I bet you cannot tell us. And I bet in the morning you have one opinion which like the restless waves of the sea, is gone by evening time.
Sure, I believe that there are two main men in world history - the first man Adam and the second man Christ - ie. "the last Adam." He's the Head of a new race entering into God's eternal purpose - people born again in Christ to be sons of God.
But you are going to tell me what is really real now. Some fossils prove your ancestors were animals and you arrived by some lucky mutations ? Is your "reality" pretty much the same as what A3Paulz wrote up there ?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by JonF, posted 11-03-2013 9:32 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by JonF, posted 11-04-2013 7:30 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 264 of 376 (710245)
11-03-2013 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Tangle
11-03-2013 10:38 AM


Re: First man?
The Bible is a single short book which is extremely easy to understand
Oh that's good. What do you think the eighth chapter of the book of Romans, for example, is about ? Outline the chapter for me, WITHOUT examining anyone else's outline.
YOU outline the 8th chapter of Romans, little ole YOU.
Or outline for me the seventeenth chapter of the Gospel of John - a prayer uttered by Jesus. I don't ask you to agree with it. Just comprehend His thought there and tell me what John 17 is all about.
Its an easy book. Should be no problem for you.
WARNING: I find the bible to have a funny effect on people. The LESS they read it the MORE they consider themselves an expert on it, just like what you are doing here.
The Bible is a single short book which is extremely easy to understand
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Tangle, posted 11-03-2013 10:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2013 3:19 AM jaywill has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 265 of 376 (710257)
11-04-2013 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by jaywill
11-03-2013 8:44 PM


Re: First man?
Jaywill writes:
Oh that's good. What do you think the eighth chapter of the book of Romans, for example, is about ? Outline the chapter for me, WITHOUT examining anyone else's outline.
Would you like me to explain this again?
tangle writes:
You won't find me talking much about the bible, I have very little interest in it.
I have, of course, read the bible. I'll repeat, it's a very simple book, but it's a mess. Written by god knows how many different writers over thousands of years and edited again and again. It's full of contradictions and problems. There's plenty in it to keep pedants busy for many happy years of literary criticism. Just like Lord of the rings.
Sorry, I'm not going to count the angels on the pin head for you.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:44 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jaywill, posted 11-04-2013 8:40 AM Tangle has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 266 of 376 (710260)
11-04-2013 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by jaywill
11-03-2013 8:35 PM


Re: First man?
JonF, Why are you here in this universe ?
Don't know. Doesn't matter.
What's the most real thing to you ?
Me.
Just give me one succinct explanation of why your heart beats and you breath - WHY are you alive in this universe ?
Because of millions of years of evolution.
And I bet in the morning you have one opinion which like the restless waves of the sea, is gone by evening time.
Nope.
Some fossils prove your ancestors were animals and you arrived by some lucky mutations ?
Yes, fossils are part of the evidence for evolution. Humans arrived partly by lucky mutations. Also by selection, drift, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by jaywill, posted 11-03-2013 8:35 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jaywill, posted 11-04-2013 8:36 AM JonF has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 267 of 376 (710262)
11-04-2013 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by JonF
11-04-2013 7:30 AM


Re: First man?
Don't know. Doesn't matter.
Does it matter if someone meets you in a back alley tonight, clobbers you over the head, steals your wallet, leaves you with severe concussion and broke ?
Me.
There is something even more real to me than me- Jesus.
I believe that I could have amnetia or dementia over who I am. But deep within me I would still realize that I know Jesus Christ.
jw:
Just give me one succinct explanation of why your heart beats and you breath - WHY are you alive in this universe ?
Because of millions of years of evolution.
Do you think there was a very first instance of natural selection ?
And I bet in the morning you have one opinion which like the restless waves of the sea, is gone by evening time.
Nope.
Yes, fossils are part of the evidence for evolution. Humans arrived partly by lucky mutations. Also by selection, drift, etc.
Or unlucky. According to your view I think it really doesn't matter one way or another. Maybe it was unlucky and the luckier thing would have been for there to be nothing around but dust or cold rocks, or even nothing at all.
What good is evolution anyway ? "Doesn't matter." Yep.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by JonF, posted 11-04-2013 7:30 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by JonF, posted 11-04-2013 8:46 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 268 of 376 (710264)
11-04-2013 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Tangle
11-04-2013 3:19 AM


Re: First man?
It's full of contradictions and problems.
No outline of Romans 8 or John 17 ? I'm disappointed.
What's your best example of a internal contradiction in the Bible ?
I'd like to see your one or two strongest possible examples.
Don't save the strongest examples for after your weaker examples. Give me your two strongest examples up front and first.
By the way, I might agree. I might not. But on one hand you say the book is easy. Then you turn right around and talk about many problems there - "full of contradictions and problems." Then it is not easy to understand as you said.
Maybe you should decide which criticism you'd like to stick with. Or clarify when it is easy and when it is difficult.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2013 3:19 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2013 9:32 AM jaywill has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 269 of 376 (710265)
11-04-2013 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by jaywill
11-04-2013 8:36 AM


Re: First man?
Does it matter if someone meets you in a back alley tonight, clobbers you over the head, steals your wallet, leaves you with severe concussion and broke ?
It matters to me. But that's a very different question than "why are you here?".
Do you think there was a very first instance of natural selection ?
That's hard to say. There may not have been anything that we would recognize as the first instance of natural selection were we witnessing it. Biological boundaries tend to be fuzzy and hard to pin down. There was a time when there was no biological natural selection, there was a time sometime later when natural selection was operating, and research is ongoing. So what?
Or unlucky. According to your view I think it really doesn't matter one way or another. Maybe it was unlucky and the luckier thing would have been for there to be nothing around but dust or cold rocks, or even nothing at all.
I prefer it the way it is, but a near-infinite number of other outcomes would have been possible.
What good is evolution anyway ?
That's way off topic. But it is the best description we have of the history of life, by far, and knowledge in itself has some value. It's foundational to all of biology and a lot of medicine. And more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jaywill, posted 11-04-2013 8:36 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by jaywill, posted 11-04-2013 9:40 AM JonF has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 270 of 376 (710274)
11-04-2013 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by jaywill
11-04-2013 8:40 AM


Re: First man?
Jaywill writes:
No outline of Romans 8 or John 17 ? I'm disappointed.
I'm sure you'll get over it.
What's your best example of a internal contradiction in the Bible ?
Third and last time - I'm not interested in discussing the bible with you.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jaywill, posted 11-04-2013 8:40 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Phat, posted 11-04-2013 9:41 AM Tangle has replied

  
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