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Author Topic:   Human Spirit
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 61 (710230)
11-03-2013 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
11-03-2013 12:19 PM


Re: Who imagined us?
human spirit is not spiritual
its plain old enthusiasm and passion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 11-03-2013 12:19 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Stile, posted 11-04-2013 2:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 17 of 61 (710313)
11-04-2013 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
11-02-2013 5:38 AM


Re: Who imagined us?
Phat writes:
A common mistake for humans is to naively believe that we built the drawer (or discovered it in our minds) and that we are in control of what we store there, take from there, or assign value to what we perceive to be in there.
Why would this be a mistake or nave?
I can see how some might take this view and abuse it in a selfish, prideful way. But then the mistake would be allowing one's pride or selfish desires to lead one's thoughts. That would be a mistake or nave.
However, if understood in a healthy manner, this sort of idea can be very helpful and beneficial.
That would not be a mistake or nave.
Are you trying to refer to the possible negative aspects and simply ignore the plentiful positive sides?
It's really very similar to your opinion:
quote:
The reality, however, is that long before we could imagine such things a Creator imagined us and foreknew our intelligence, strength, and limitations. My belief, anyway.
This idea, if understood in a healthy manner, can be very helpful and beneficial to people.
However, if manipulated into a selfish, prideful way... this idea could be abused to support any number of horrible atrocities and simply use the Creator as a scapegoat.
It carries possible negative aspects but there's also a plentiful positive side. Doesn't really seem better in any way.
The point isn't to accept-what-Phat-believes-because-it-works-well-for-some.
Neither is it to accept-what-Stile-believes-because-that-works-well-for-some.
The point is to find what works best for you in a helpful, healthy, beneficial way.
To do this you must be honest with yourself and understand which method (it may be a 3rd or 4th one altogether...) works best for you. That is the only way to live up to our full potential.
Phat writes:
Who imagined us?
Maybe something.
Maybe nothing.
As long as there is no indication from this possible-thing... I don't see how it makes a difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 11-02-2013 5:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 18 of 61 (710315)
11-04-2013 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dogmafood
11-02-2013 1:34 PM


Re: The ethereal quality of things that we wish were so.
ProtoTypical writes:
So basically just something that we make up to make us feel good.
Exactly.
I wouldn't call it "just something" though.
Not having to rely on external stimuli in order to feel good sounds like a rather powerful tool to have.
Without that, it would seem you would be rather dependent on things you have no control over.
The idea of a human spirit is a coping mechanism that we use to deal with our mortal nature. It is a way of bypassing the reality of death and non existence. It is a construct of the mind that we use to beat the unbeatable test. It is what we aspire to be.
It is born of that human quality that is the will to survive even in the face of inescapable mortality.
Yup.
But that's just the basics. As intelligent beings, we're capable of using our intelligence to tap into this existing basic mechanism and use it to help ourselves in a variety of other ways.
It's not a replacement for reality.
It's a supplement to help make reality a bit more palatable to us.
It's one thing to understand reality.
It's another thing to have fun with it.
It's quite possible to do both.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dogmafood, posted 11-02-2013 1:34 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Dogmafood, posted 11-06-2013 7:11 PM Stile has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 19 of 61 (710317)
11-04-2013 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
11-01-2013 9:57 AM


To boldly go where no man has gone before...
Does having more than one junk draw make one a horder?
In my opinion:
I think the human spirit is a collection of our best attributes.
The human spirit is that ever changing condition that strives to surpass ourselves both physically and mentally. To achieve greatness in the face of complete opposition. To harness the power of our will and mind in our enduring quest to understand our existance, our limitations and then go beyond them.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 11-01-2013 9:57 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 11-04-2013 2:07 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 20 of 61 (710318)
11-04-2013 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
11-03-2013 12:56 PM


Re: Who imagined us?
Phat writes:
human spirit is not spiritual
Yes it is. It's even got the word spirit right there in it.
its plain old enthusiasm and passion
I agree that "plain old enthusiasm and passion" is not spiritual.
However... human spirit is a lot more than this.
The human spirit in other people is not limited by this verbal restriction you've attempted.
My human spirit includes awe. So there

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 11-03-2013 12:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 21 of 61 (710319)
11-04-2013 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by 1.61803
11-04-2013 1:58 PM


Re: To boldly go where no man has gone before...
1.61803 writes:
Does having more than one junk draw make one a hoarder?
It wasn't a very good analogy, just something that popped into my head at the time
The human spirit is that ever changing condition that strives to surpass ourselves both physically and mentally.
The "ever changing condition" part is what I was trying to get at with the junk-drawer idea. It flows and changes with our current needs and environment. I find it difficult to describe. That generally means I don't understand it too well. But that's a powerful thing. It's difficult to "have no limitations" if you're fully understood...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by 1.61803, posted 11-04-2013 1:58 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by 1.61803, posted 11-04-2013 2:21 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 23 by petrophysics1, posted 11-04-2013 5:16 PM Stile has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 22 of 61 (710321)
11-04-2013 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Stile
11-04-2013 2:07 PM


Re: To boldly go where no man has gone before...
Stile writes:
It's difficult to "have no limitations" if you're fully understood...
I believe it was Emerson that said, "To be great is to be misunderstood."
I think you are on to something here. We stand on the shoulders of giants, sort of thing. Even when the sun goes nova and the Earth is no longer inhabited many believe the human spirit will endure. That humans will somehow manage to spread our culture beyond our planet. I like to think that is the case.
Sort of a agnositc religious manifesto for the ages.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 11-04-2013 2:07 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 61 (710336)
11-04-2013 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Stile
11-04-2013 2:07 PM


The human spirit is you
Stile,
The junk drawer idea is cute but a little stupid.
Who exactly owns the junk drawer?
Now if you answered, "I do", you have a key to what the human spirit is.
You are not the things you observe. You are not your kitchen stove, the living room chair, your wife, or me.
Is your body in good shape, or is it fat? Can you always make it do what you want, or is it sometimes too tired? BTW if you can objectively look at your body....that can't be you......you are the thing looking at it.
How about your mind? Are you able to look at that? That junk drawer in your mind is filled with crap you have forgotten about. You close one eye and still see 3D, that's not possible unless you have software running to do that. What is all the stuff in your mind or junk drawer?
You need to see what all that is so it doesn't affect your thinking or physical well being.
You can objectively look at your thinking which is your mind so you are not that. You are the thing looking at it.
You, as a spiritual being, are that thing which looks at your body, and your mind, and all the rest of existence.
Stile, you are not God, but you are the same kind of thing that God is. A spiritual being able to observe the universe using a body and mind to do so.
Go and look yourself. I don't sell salvation and don't like the people who do.
Don't believe me, go and look yourself.
The human spirit is YOU!
Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Stile, posted 11-04-2013 2:07 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 11-05-2013 2:12 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 24 of 61 (710469)
11-05-2013 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by petrophysics1
11-04-2013 5:16 PM


Re: The human spirit is you
petrophysics1 writes:
The junk drawer idea is cute but a little stupid.
I think you just didn't understand what I was saying.
You are not the things you observe. You are not your kitchen stove, the living room chair, your wife, or me.
I wasn't attempting to imply this in any way.
You need to see what all that is so it doesn't affect your thinking or physical well being.
Again, this may be what you need.
People are different and different people need different things.
What works for each individual person is a difficult question.
But one thing is known for sure: a single idea/concept/plan isn't going to work for everyone. Because people are too different.
Stile, you are not God...
I didn't mean to imply that I thought such a thing.
...but you are the same kind of thing that God is. A spiritual being able to observe the universe using a body and mind to do so.
Maybe.
Go and look yourself. I don't sell salvation and don't like the people who do.
Don't believe me, go and look yourself.
The human spirit is YOU!
I don't have any plans to ever stop looking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by petrophysics1, posted 11-04-2013 5:16 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(2)
Message 25 of 61 (710568)
11-06-2013 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Stile
11-04-2013 1:55 PM


Re: The ethereal quality of things that we wish were so.
Not having to rely on external stimuli in order to feel good sounds like a rather powerful tool to have.
Hey you wont find me knocking self stimulation although it is always better if you can convince other entities to join in. Exponentially so if the other entities are actually real.
If your point is that there can be benefits to a belief structure even if the substance of the belief is unfounded I would agree but there is a cost as well. If your goal is to truly understand the nature of the universe and existence then it does you no good to be entertaining flights of fancy.
Without that, it would seem you would be rather dependent on things you have no control over.
Welcome to the human condition.
It's not a replacement for reality.
It's a supplement to help make reality a bit more palatable to us.
Not usually for the people who believe it. Those who are convinced that there is such a thing as a spirit or a spiritual plane believe it to be a part of reality.
In the end, I think, we should not choose what we wish to believe is true. Even in the face of such a compelling idea.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Stile, posted 11-04-2013 1:55 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Stile, posted 11-07-2013 9:30 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 26 of 61 (710594)
11-07-2013 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dogmafood
11-06-2013 7:11 PM


Re: The ethereal quality of things that we wish were so.
ProtoTypical writes:
If your goal is to truly understand the nature of the universe and existence then it does you no good to be entertaining flights of fancy.
Fully agreed.
The human spirit is fairly useless when attempting to determine a truth about reality.
However, if you spend all your time with the goal to truly understand the nature of the universe... you're missing out on a lot of life.
Not usually for the people who believe it. Those who are convinced that there is such a thing as a spirit or a spiritual plane believe it to be a part of reality.
Also agreed. People such as this are setting themselves up for failure and disappointment. Or at the least, some cognitive dissonance at some point in time.
In the end, I think, we should not choose what we wish to believe is true. Even in the face of such a compelling idea.
And I agree to this as well.
It's a good thing that the benefits from the human spirit are not something we need to choose. The placebo effect is a very real, testable and verifiable effect. We just need to go about it in the right way. "The right way," however, tends to be a different for each person.
Science has a time and a place.
Human spirit has a time and a place.
To deny one is to dwell in a fantasy land.
To deny the other is to dwell in an emotionless wasteland.
I'm just saying we each need to find the balance that works for us. And to do that, we need to be honest with ourselves.
But yes, when our priorities/goals shift into "wanting to understand reality" we need to understand the limitations of each aspect.
The same as when our priorities/goals shift into "wanting to help someone feel better" we need to understand the limitations of each aspect again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Dogmafood, posted 11-06-2013 7:11 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Dogmafood, posted 11-09-2013 8:51 AM Stile has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 349 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(2)
Message 27 of 61 (710705)
11-09-2013 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Stile
11-07-2013 9:30 AM


Re: The ethereal quality of things that we wish were so.
However, if you spend all your time with the goal to truly understand the nature of the universe... you're missing out on a lot of life.
I guess that no matter what I do I will be missing out on a lot of life. It is like a giant smorgasbord and you can not possibly taste all of it. Gorging on the pastries wont take you as far as the chicken, pasta, potatoes and salad.
Also agreed. People such as this are setting themselves up for failure and disappointment. Or at the least, some cognitive dissonance at some point in time.
Yeah I dont know. I have seen a few people take their faith right to the end of their life and it seemed to serve them well. You made the point that faith was not a substitute for reality. I am saying that it really only offers benefits when it is a substitute for reality. Once you realize that that is what it is then those benefits are no longer available to you. Placebo effects disappear when you know that it is a sugar pill and if they don't then they were not placebo effects.
But an effect is an effect and this is the interesting part for me. If believing in a thing can produce real effects then what does that say about the power of belief?
Science has a time and a place.
Human spirit has a time and a place.
To deny one is to dwell in a fantasy land.
To deny the other is to dwell in an emotionless wasteland.
You either approach the world scientifically or you do not. It even says so right in the bible,
"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:" Proverbs 23:7

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Stile, posted 11-07-2013 9:30 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 11-11-2013 10:23 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 28 of 61 (710810)
11-11-2013 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dogmafood
11-09-2013 8:51 AM


You don't have to
ProtoTypical writes:
You made the point that faith was not a substitute for reality. I am saying that it really only offers benefits when it is a substitute for reality. Once you realize that that is what it is then those benefits are no longer available to you. Placebo effects disappear when you know that it is a sugar pill and if they don't then they were not placebo effects.
This is simply not true, and can be shown to be false.
I have faith in hope.
That is... I can believe that things will work out even when all available evidence points to the contrary.
When I hope for something, however, I do not substitute that with reality. It is just alongside reality.
Have you ever heard the expression "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst?"
This is, generally, what I tend to do.
It gives me an upbeat attitude even when one isn't justified by the available evidence of the situation.
But I do not ignore reality.
For example:
I play on a slow-pitch baseball team.
Sometimes our team gets very behind in the baseball game and things look very likely that we will lose (we score less runs than the other team each inning, and we are now in the last inning).
I still have an upbeat attitude about playing well and trying to win the game.
This does not mean I ignore the scoreboard. It just means I maintain an upbeat attitude in the face of adversity when the evidence shows we will lose the game.
This is a benefit to myself (I do not feel bad and am now capable of continuing to try my best).
This does not substitute reality (I understand we will very likely still lose the game).
Therefore "I am saying that (faith) really only offers benefits when it is a substitute for reality" is false.
Once you realize that that is what it is then those benefits are no longer available to you.
This is only true if you do actually use your faith to replace reality. Because (as you say), once you realize that your faith actually isn't reality... then the illusion is shattered. If you replace reality with your faith then you are gaining the benefits from the illusion. Lose the illusion and you lose the benefits. With this idea, I completely agree with you.
But this isn't the idea that I'm talking about.
I'm telling you that faith doesn't have to be used in this manner. It can be used to supplement reality. When used alongside reality, the benefits remain even while you're fully aware of reality. This is because you are not replacing or ignoring reality in any way. You're simply adding something (faith) alongside it. Something you can see/feel right alongside reality. Something that you understand is not a part of reality, but you can still gain benefits from.
Placebo effects disappear when you know that it is a sugar pill and if they don't then they were not placebo effects.
True. Which is why the placebo effect was just an analogy and not an exact replica.
The effects of faith do not have to disappear when you know that the faith is not reality.
The effects can be just as powerful (and sometimes even more powerful) than replacing reality, when you use your faith to supplement reality.
If believing in a thing can produce real effects then what does that say about the power of belief?
It says that faith is a powerful tool.
It says that if we use this powerful tool correctly, we can add benefits to our life whenever we may be in need of them.
Aside:
Ever see that old ('80s?) Hercules cartoon where Hercules kept his ring in his belt and whenever he put it on he gained super-human strength? Herc was always losing his ring and couldn't defeat the various bad guy/demon (who all made the same roar-ing noise anyway...) until he found it.
I was at a talent show that had the little centaur character (Newton?) calling out to Hercules: "Why don't you just wear it all the time, Herc? All the time???..."
You either approach the world scientifically or you do not. It even says so right in the bible,
"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:" Proverbs 23:7
I don't really care what the Bible says. Although I went to Catholic Church every week for about 10-15 years... I never really read the Bible. What I do know about the Bible leads me to think that it is a very unreliable source of information.
However, your statement "you either approach the world scientifically or you do not." Is again false.
Maybe not for some people, actually.
But it certainly is false for all people.
Some people have the ability to approach situations with a multitude of various tools and/or mindsets.
It is quite possible to approach the world scientifically and not scientifically at different times, even for the same situation.
It is also possible to keep both concepts separate in your mind, and yet use both to approach the same situation at the same time.
People can be very versatile.
However, if you'd like to be versatile...
I guess that no matter what I do I will be missing out on a lot of life. It is like a giant smorgasbord and you can not possibly taste all of it. Gorging on the pastries wont take you as far as the chicken, pasta, potatoes and salad.
Then you'll have to control the parts of the smorgasbord you get to.
I certainly agree that it's quite possible to stay in one section of life and become an expert in that area.
However, there's nothing forcing you to do this.
It's also possible to try many different areas of life.
Have you ever heard of the saying "Jack of all trades, but master of none?"
That saying only applies to you if you allow it.
It's also possible to say "Jack of all trades, and master of each."
It's up to each of us to be honest with ourselves, identify our strengths and weaknesses, and use that knowledge to expand whatever parts of ourselves we are able to (and would like to) expand.
Or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Dogmafood, posted 11-09-2013 8:51 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by 1.61803, posted 11-11-2013 11:27 AM Stile has replied
 Message 34 by Dogmafood, posted 11-14-2013 9:48 PM Stile has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(2)
Message 29 of 61 (710830)
11-11-2013 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Stile
11-11-2013 10:23 AM


Re: You don't have to
Hi Stile, nice post.
I think it boils down to having a positive attitude in the face of defeat. Perhaps that too is part of our human spirit.
We can not KNOW the final outcome of the game.
In fact Yogi said " it ain't over till it's over." the 9th inning could have a lead off triple with two walks to follow and a walk off grand slam!!!!
.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 11-11-2013 10:23 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Stile, posted 11-11-2013 11:54 AM 1.61803 has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 30 of 61 (710834)
11-11-2013 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by 1.61803
11-11-2013 11:27 AM


Where it comes from
1.61803 writes:
I think it boils down to having a positive attitude in the face of defeat. Perhaps that too is part of our human spirit.
As you say, "perhaps that too is part of our human spirit."
I would be very hesitant to ever say that anything is "all the human spirit is" or "the only way to help your spirit grow."
There will always be different methods with varying results for each of us... because people are different.
So, we'll just talk about "a method" instead of "the method" for things.
One method I use a lot for having a positive attitude in the face of defeat is thinking about how much it matters.
Taking sports again...
So what if I'm in a losing game and will likely lose the game anyway?
Am I here to win all the games? If so... why not play a bunch of kindergartners? I'm much more likely to win that way...
What do I get at the end of the season if I do happen to win all the games? A cheap T-shirt? Really??
Or am I here to see how good I am against others? If so... does winning/losing even matter that much?
Maybe I want to improve, no matter what my skill level is, therefore trying will only help that goal and winning/losing doesn't matter again.
Also, tomorrow... is anyone at work going to care about whether or not I won my recreational slow-pitch game last night?
Therefore, maybe I should get whatever I want out of it while playing and not care about winning or not.
I like to take the idea that "nothing really matters.." and make it a strength instead of something to fear.
If winning the game doesn't really matter... then I'm free to play any way I'd like and get whatever out of it I can.
Therefore... I can play my best and try my best and see what happens just because I want to.
Does winning the World Series (seriously... "World Series" that only the USA and a few teams from Canada play in?... ) matter?
-certainly it will matter to more colleagues the day after then winning my slow-pitch game will.
But does it really matter?
What if a terrorist plot is uncovered and a bomb is placed at the World Series?
Do we all stay and see who wins because that really matters? Or do we leave and post-pone the game because other things are more important?
And we end up in the same place... If winning the World Series doesn't really matter... then I can play my best and try my best and see what happens just because I want to. And no amount of terrorist attacks can take that idea away from me.
And now for the biggie:
Does life really matter?
Well, I've never heard a very good answer for that question. Certainly not in any "absolute sense," anyway.
So... if life itself doesn't really matter... then I'm free to live it however I'd like and try my best and see what happens just because I want to.
...that can be a powerful tool and attitude.
It can be good or bad depending on what "however I'd like" actually is... but it is undeniably powerful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by 1.61803, posted 11-11-2013 11:27 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by 1.61803, posted 11-12-2013 5:29 PM Stile has replied

  
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