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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 151 of 716 (710629)
11-07-2013 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Eliyahu
11-05-2013 11:58 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."
There is no stipulation in this command as to how long a time should transpire between the thing spoken and the fulfillment.
The people sought to stone Moses for not bringing them into the good land at the time they thought they should be there.
Though the time of that fulfillment, many died in the wilderness and never saw, they did see confirmation enough that Moses spoke God's words, many of which they DID see come to pass.
Jesus predicted His death and resurrection which came to pass as He said. This gives us encouragement that if those matters came true other matters spoken by Him will come true as well.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Eliyahu, posted 11-05-2013 11:58 PM Eliyahu has not replied

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 Message 152 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2013 5:03 PM jaywill has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 152 of 716 (710631)
11-07-2013 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:52 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Jesus predicted His death and resurrection which came to pass as He said.
All you have are people claiming this after the supposed event. That we have no evidence it even happened notwithstanding, it isn't a prediction post event.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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 Message 151 by jaywill, posted 11-07-2013 4:52 PM jaywill has replied

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 Message 153 by jaywill, posted 11-07-2013 6:00 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 153 of 716 (710633)
11-07-2013 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Theodoric
11-07-2013 5:03 PM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
Then again that could simply be your unbelief.
There is the unbelief of people who would claim that no prophesied event in the Bible ever came to pass.
I would just count your objection as your own unbelief.
Jesus also prophesied that nothing would destroy His ekklessia - the church. In 2,000 some years the Christian church should have been wiped out and terminated. She grows and spreads still. I would count that as fulfilled prophecy of Jesus.
" ... and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall nmot prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)
Not Ceasar's Rome, not Constantine's confusion, not the Dark Ages, not Mao's Cultural Revolution, not Voltaire's promise to rid the Christian gospel, ... I would think that the gates of Hades should have prevailed over Christ's church long ago.
She triumphs until the coming of Christ.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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 Message 152 by Theodoric, posted 11-07-2013 5:03 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 154 of 716 (717599)
01-29-2014 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
08-02-2013 5:56 AM


Re: The Suffering Servant messianic passages speak about ISRAEL
aside from telling and retelling other people that there is no God besides Y-H-W-H, what is it that you believe your G-d is telling you to do with the life He gave you?
Bs'd
Apart from being a light unto the nations, my job is to study Torah: "Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them."
Deut 5:1

.

This message is a reply to:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 155 of 716 (717600)
01-29-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by jaywill
11-07-2013 4:35 PM


The words are clear. It was supposed to be within the generation of those listening. And it was pretty clear that those listening thought so too.
Didn't happen.
Bs'd
In this one there is no wriggle room at all:
In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1
Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works? But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom! Are they still around today? Even Methuselah didn't live that long!
From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet. What does the Holy Torah that the only eternal G.d gave to the Jewish people say about this?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22:
"But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that Y-H-W-H has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of Y-H-W-H, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that Y-H-W-H has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."
Here G.d commands the Jewish people to execute false prophets, who are prophets whose prophecies do not come true. Jesus is a perfect example of a prophet whose prophecy did not come true. See also the prophecy concerning the three days and three nights that did not come true.

.

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 Message 156 by GDR, posted 01-29-2014 1:38 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 156 of 716 (717601)
01-29-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Eliyahu
01-29-2014 1:21 PM


Eliyahu writes:
In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1
Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works? But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom! Are they still around today? Even Methuselah didn't live that long!
From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet. What does the Holy Torah that the only eternal G.d gave to the Jewish people say about this?
Well in part yes. Firstly the "Son of Man" reference goes to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man" is being presented to the Ancient of Days. That coming is a heavenly vision and not an earthly one. However, it goes on to say that the "Son of Man" will be given dominion over an everlasting Kingdom that will be established in an earthly setting and extend beyond time to eternity. Christ's Kingdom or His church now exists throughout the world, and was established in the life times of those Jesus was speaking to.
AbE I just thought I'd add that I realize this is not going to convince you of anything but I do want to give you the Christian POV.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Eliyahu, posted 01-29-2014 1:21 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Eliyahu, posted 01-30-2014 2:02 AM GDR has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 157 of 716 (717650)
01-30-2014 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by GDR
01-29-2014 1:38 PM


Well in part yes. Firstly the "Son of Man" reference goes to Daniel 7 where the "Son of Man" is being presented to the Ancient of Days. That coming is a heavenly vision and not an earthly one. However, it goes on to say that the "Son of Man" will be given dominion over an everlasting Kingdom that will be established in an earthly setting and extend beyond time to eternity. Christ's Kingdom or His church now exists throughout the world, and was established in the life times of those Jesus was speaking to.
AbE I just thought I'd add that I realize this is not going to convince you of anything but I do want to give you the Christian POV.
Bs'd
Well, the question is MUCH better than the answer.
And of course, when JC speaks about the "son of man" he is of course speaking about himself, as we can see in for instance Mat 8,20, Mat 9,6, Mat 10,23, Mat 11,19, Mat 12,8, Mat 12,32, Mat 12,40, Mat 13,37, Mat 13,41, Mat 17,9, Mat 17,12, Mat 17,22, Mat 18,11, Mat 19,28, Mat 20,18, Mat 20,28, and others.
So the fact remains that JC was a false prophet.
No way around it.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

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 Message 156 by GDR, posted 01-29-2014 1:38 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by GDR, posted 01-30-2014 2:18 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 158 of 716 (717651)
01-30-2014 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Eliyahu
01-30-2014 2:02 AM


Eliyahu writes:
So the fact remains that JC was a false prophet.
Not at all. They were looking for a warrior king but Jesus' point that the enemy was evil itself and that the weapon to be used against evil is love. They were looking for a messiah to rebuild the Temple but Jesus said that the Temple was being rebuilt in Him and in the hearts of His followers.
In other words He fulfilled the prophesies but not in the way that they had expected.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Eliyahu, posted 01-30-2014 2:02 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Eliyahu, posted 02-01-2014 11:49 PM GDR has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 159 of 716 (717828)
02-01-2014 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by GDR
01-30-2014 2:18 AM


Not at all. They were looking for a warrior king
Bs'd
The reason they were looking for a warrior king, is because the Hebrew prophets say the messiah is going to be a warrior king.
but Jesus' point that the enemy was evil itself and that the weapon to be used against evil is love.
If he really was the messiah, then he should have fulfilled the messianic prophecies, and not come with love and brotherhood stories.
They were looking for a messiah to rebuild the Temple but Jesus said that the Temple was being rebuilt in Him and in the hearts of His followers.
And we all know, no Temple is being built in any hearts, so also in that aspect he failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies.
In other words He fulfilled the prophesies but not in the way that they had expected.
The messianic prophecies also say that the messiah must make an end to war, and save the Jews from the oppression of their enemies, JC failed on all accounts.
Bringing some vague stories about Temples in hearts, love and understanding, is in no way fulfilling the messianic prophecies.
Talking is cheap. Fulfilling the messianic prophecies is a whole different ball game.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by GDR, posted 01-30-2014 2:18 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by GDR, posted 02-02-2014 11:57 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 160 of 716 (717869)
02-02-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Eliyahu
02-01-2014 11:49 PM


Eliyahu writes:
The reason they were looking for a warrior king, is because the Hebrew prophets say the messiah is going to be a warrior king.
That was their assumption based on their world view of how the enemy was to be defeated.
Eliyahu writes:
If he really was the messiah, then he should have fulfilled the messianic prophecies, and not come with love and brotherhood stories.
He fulfilled the prophesies by coming with love and brotherhood. That was the way the enemy, (evil), was to be defeated.
Eliyahu writes:
And we all know, no Temple is being built in any hearts, so also in that aspect he failed to fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Well, we don't all know that. The Temple was the place where God was suppose to dwell, or where God was incarnate. Essentially that was foreshadowing of the Word of God incarnate in Jesus.
Eliyahu writes:
The messianic prophecies also say that the messiah must make an end to war, and save the Jews from the oppression of their enemies, JC failed on all accounts.
Bringing some vague stories about Temples in hearts, love and understanding, is in no way fulfilling the messianic prophecies.
Talking is cheap. Fulfilling the messianic prophecies is a whole different ball game.
Ok. We now have nearly 2000 years of recorded history. In that time the "Kingdom of God" as announced by Jesus has been spread word wide and even though it has had a very spotty record it has also led in huge advances in civilization.
Your version has still not seen a messiah. I don't have to tell you about what has happened to the Temple and Israel exists because of the politics of gentile countries and is a secular state. Just what of the prophesies as you understand them has been fulfilled?
I don't mean this to sound confrontational. Essentially I see Christianity as largely Jewish. I realize that Jesus knew that what He was doing was going to be divisive, (mind you there already were many divisions within the ranks of the Jews of that day ), but I don't think that He would have imagined that there would be a separate church. Jesus was a Jew in a Jewish culture. He lived His life in that culture, and of all of His initial followers were Jewish. We're all brothers who have a bit of a disagreement over our historical roots. It does all boil down to what we believe about the resurrection.
Edited by GDR, : typo

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Eliyahu, posted 02-01-2014 11:49 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Eliyahu, posted 02-02-2014 12:52 PM GDR has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 161 of 716 (717870)
02-02-2014 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by GDR
02-02-2014 11:57 AM


Ok. We now have nearly 2000 years of recorded history.
Bs'd
Closer to 6000.
In that time the "Kingdom of God" as announced by Jesus has been spread word wide and even though it has had a very spotty record it has also led in huge advances in civilization.
The Kingdom of Allah is also being spread, and is soon to overtake the kingdom of JC.
Your version has still not seen a messiah.
You think that's a problem?
I don't have to tell you about what has happened to the Temple and Israel exists because of the politics of gentile countries
Israel doesn't exist because of the politics of the Gentile countries, but despite of it.
and is a secular state.
Within 20 years the religious will have the majority, and then we'll see miracles happening.
Just what of the prophesies as you understand them has been fulfilled?
"Fear not, for I am with thee, I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west. I will say to the north; give up, and to the south; keep not back: Bring my sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Isaiah 43:5+6 The whole world witnesses this miracle, how after almost 2000 years of dispersion over the whole earth the Jews are returning to Israel. In just 50 years a state has been built from scratch, the Hebrew language has been revived. Is there any precedent in history for this? Is there any other people that was dispersed throughout the whole world for almost 2000 years that held on to their identity and their religion?---Surely we see here the hand of G.d.
I don't mean this to sound confrontational. Essentially I see Christianity as largely Jewish.
However, Christianity is largely pagan.
I realize that Jesus knew that what He was doing was going to be divisive, (mind you there already were many divisions within the ranks of the Jews of that day ), but I don't think that He would have imagined that there would be a separate church. Jesus was a Jew in a Jewish culture. He lived His life in that culture, and of all of His initial followers were Jewish. We're all brothers who have a bit of a disagreement over our historical roots. It does all boil down to what we believe about the resurrection.
It boils down to what we believe about serving God.
The Jews serve God by fulfilling His commandments and upkeeping His law.
The Christians think they are serving God while they threw overboard all Gods commandments and replaced them with paganism.
Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

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 Message 160 by GDR, posted 02-02-2014 11:57 AM GDR has replied

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 Message 162 by GDR, posted 02-03-2014 3:54 PM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 02-03-2014 9:46 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 162 of 716 (718003)
02-03-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Eliyahu
02-02-2014 12:52 PM


Eliyahu writes:
It boils down to what we believe about serving God.
The Jews serve God by fulfilling His commandments and upkeeping His law.
The Christians think they are serving God while they threw overboard all Gods commandments and replaced them with paganism.
This is based on your misconceptions of Christianity. Jesus taught that we are to keep the commandments, not because by keeping them that we will have God on our side, but because they are written on our hearts and that we find joy in keeping them.
That teaching is completely consistent with Torah.
This is from Matthew 22.
quote:
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Jesus is referring back to Dt 6.
quote:
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts.
and Lev 19.
quote:
18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
Again, it is all about the heart.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Eliyahu, posted 02-02-2014 12:52 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 163 of 716 (718035)
02-03-2014 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Eliyahu
02-02-2014 12:52 PM


The Kingdom of Allah is also being spread, and is soon to overtake the kingdom of JC.
Sad to say you could be right about this. But God always preserves a remnant of those who put their trust in Him. Christians in name only aren't Christians anyway. When we get down to a few true believers then you'll see the power of God in us.
Your version has still not seen a messiah.
You think that's a problem?
Well, there's one coming soon I think, but he'll be a tool of Satan. I hope if that happens it will cause you to rethink the evidence for the true Messiah/Moschiach Jesus/Yeshua.
I don't have to tell you about what has happened to the Temple and Israel exists because of the politics of gentile countries
Israel doesn't exist because of the politics of the Gentile countries, but despite of it.
I agree with this in a general sense, especially now and for the future, but originally its existence depended on Britain.
and is a secular state.
Within 20 years the religious will have the majority, and then we'll see miracles happening.
Not until you recognize Jesus as your true Messiah, and I certainly hope that happens within the next twenty years, the sooner the better.
Just what of the prophesies as you understand them has been fulfilled?
"Fear not, for I am with thee, I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west. I will say to the north; give up, and to the south; keep not back: Bring my sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth." Isaiah 43:5+6 The whole world witnesses this miracle, how after almost 2000 years of dispersion over the whole earth the Jews are returning to Israel. In just 50 years a state has been built from scratch, the Hebrew language has been revived. Is there any precedent in history for this? Is there any other people that was dispersed throughout the whole world for almost 2000 years that held on to their identity and their religion?---Surely we see here the hand of G.d.
I tend to agree with you about this (although there are other ways of seeing it among Christians). The founding of Israel was not led by people who trusted in God, nor has any of its history been attributed to God, by the Jews themselves I mean, that I know of. Still, I agree that there is no way all that could have come about unless God was guiding it, despite the fact that the nation as a whole is unbelieving. It's hard to deny that God supported Israel in the wars that threatened her starting in 1948. Powerful Providence if not exactly miraculous. I also expect Jesus to return to earth on the Mount of Olives. Hope you grasp the implications of that eventually.
I don't mean this to sound confrontational. Essentially I see Christianity as largely Jewish.
However, Christianity is largely pagan.
This is quite true of Roman Catholicism, but they aren't Christian anyway. (Some Catholics may be Christian because they at least learned that Jesus is the Savior and don't understand all the weird theology of the RCC, but the RCC itself is pagan to the core. Even their garb goes back to pagan Rome, and the title "Pontiff" and that fish-shaped hat that harks back to the religion of Dagon the fish god, and the exaltation of "the virgin Mary" who is simply the RCC version of the goddess mothers of Tammuz and Osiris and all the rest of them that go back to Semiramis and Nimrod. And as the book of Revelation says of the RCC, she is the Harlot Church that is "drunk with the blood of the martyrs" which include all the victims of their Inquisition, some 50 million Bible-believing Christians plus another 17 million which included Jews among others. And from what I've been reading the Holocaust itself was modeled on the Inquisition. Hitler was a Catholic and the Pope in his time supported him, eulogized him on his death and after the war facilitated the escape of thousands of Nazi murderers to Catholic countries. You might find this information useful some day.
...It does all boil down to what we believe about the resurrection.
It boils down to what we believe about serving God.
The Jews serve God by fulfilling His commandments and upkeeping His law.
The Christians think they are serving God while they threw overboard all Gods commandments and replaced them with paganism.
Well, the Jews of the NT even confessed that there was no way anyone had ever fulfilled the Law perfectly, and Paul taught that the whole point of the Law was to show us our inability to obey it so that we might be drawn to Christ, the only human being who ever did obey it perfectly and could do so because He did not inherit sin, having God as His Father. His perfect obedience is imputed to those who believe in Him and know that our debt to the Law was paid by His death on the cross. You also can't obey the Law, you're just fooling yourself. But once Jesus' obedience and death is accepted on our behalf then we are given spiritual strength through Him to begin to obey it.
But alas, you've managed to erase the messianic meanings of all the OT scriptures that prophesied that the Messiah would be God incarnate.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Eliyahu, posted 02-02-2014 12:52 PM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Eliyahu, posted 02-20-2014 2:03 AM Faith has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 164 of 716 (720066)
02-20-2014 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
02-03-2014 9:46 PM


Well, the Jews of the NT even confessed that there was no way anyone had ever fulfilled the Law perfectly, and Paul taught that the whole point of the Law was to show us our inability to obey it
Bs'd
So Paul said that it is impossilble to obey the law.
However, God put on obeying the law the most beautifull blessings, and on disobeying He put the most horrific curses. (for the finer details look HERE )
So what would be the use of that, if people cannot fulfill the law? Then God would simply have cursed the Jews by giving them a law which they cannot obey, and on which disobedience follow terrible curses.
And of course, there are examples of people who did follow Gods commandments: "I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give to your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves: 5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Gen 26
And God Himself clearly says that obeying the law is no problem:
For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. If you obey the commandments of Y-H-W-H your God which I command you this day, by loving Y-H-W-H your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and Y-H-W-H your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it. But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, loving Y-H-W-H your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which Y-H-W-H swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Deut 30
God says: "CHOOSE LIFE!", choose the law.
According to Paul and the Christians there is no choice.
So who should we believe, Y-H-W-H or Paul?
so that we might be drawn to Christ, the only human being who ever did obey it perfectly
Actually, he did not. For the finer details look HERE
The law stands for ever. That is what God said:
"Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come." Ex 12:17
"In the tent of meeting, outside the curtain that shields the ark of the covenant law, Aaron and his sons are to keep the lamps burning before the LORD from evening till morning. This is to be a lasting ordinance among the Israelites for the generations to come." Ex 27:21
"‘This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood.’
Leviticus 3:17
"You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live." .Leviticus 23:14
‘Now if you as a community unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the Lord gave Moses 23 any of the Lord’s commands to you through him, from the day the Lord gave them and continuing through the generations to come" Numbers 15:23
There is much, much more like this, saying the law stands forever, for all generations.
There is no such a thing as: "The messiah will come and abolish the law". It just doesn't exist.
And, of course, JC himself also said the exact opposite of what the Christians say:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matt 5
So also JC agrees: The law stands forever.
It is only Paul who comes up with the idea that the law is abolished, but who is Paul that he thinks he can abolish the law??
But alas, you've managed to erase the messianic meanings of all the OT scriptures that prophesied that the Messiah would be God incarnate.
There is not a single text in the Tanach that says that the messiah will be God incarnate.
Just doesn't exist.
If you think different, please post 'm here.
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"Those who believe that the geological record is in any degree perfect, will undoubtedly at once reject my theory."

Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 02-03-2014 9:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Faith, posted 07-19-2016 8:54 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 165 of 716 (787608)
07-19-2016 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
07-26-2013 6:26 PM


Re: Daniel 9
Bs"d
I think that by now it is quite clear that JC did NOT fulfill the messianic prophecies, so it should also be quite clear that he was NOT the messiah.
It really is that simple.
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In the service of Y-H-W-H,
Eliyahu, light unto the nations
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"All the peoples walk each in the name of his god, but as for us; we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God forever and ever!" Micah 4:5
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"According to scientific rules, in order for critics to disprove the Torah codes, they would have to find fatal flaws in each of the six papers presenting a different approach and a different code. This happened five years ago, and to date not a single flaw was found in any of these papers. Therefore, for all intent and purposes, the Torah codes have been scientifically proven, and the debate is over."
Harold Gans, mathematician and professional code breaker

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-26-2013 6:26 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by GDR, posted 07-20-2016 3:54 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
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