Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,413 Year: 3,670/9,624 Month: 541/974 Week: 154/276 Day: 28/23 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Which animals would populate the earth if the ark was real?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 588 of 991 (706842)
09-18-2013 12:04 PM


Just for info, here's a chunk of the wiki for population bottlenecks.
It shows studies of actual bottlenecks in various species. They occur at differing times and for differing reasons. None are at 4,500 years. As these species have been studied specifically for bottlenecks, any incidence of it happening at 4,500 years would have been easily spotted.
Wisent, also called European bison (Bison bonasus), faced extinction in the early 20th century. The animals living today are all descended from 12 individuals and they have extremely low genetic variation, which may be beginning to affect the reproductive ability of bulls.[9] The population of American bison (Bison bison) fell due to overhunting, nearly leading to extinction around the year 1890, though it has since begun to recover (see table).
Overhunting pushed the northern elephant seal to the brink of extinction by the late 19th century. Though they have made a comeback, the genetic variation within the population remains very low.
A classic example of a population bottleneck is that of the northern elephant seal, whose population fell to about 30 in the 1890s. Although it now numbers in the hundreds of thousands, the potential for bottlenecks within colonies remains. Dominant bulls are able to mate with the largest number of females sometimes as many as 100. With so much of a colony's offspring descended from just one dominant male, genetic diversity is limited, making the species more vulnerable to diseases and genetic mutations.
The golden hamster is a similarly bottlenecked species, with the vast majority descended from a single litter found in the Syrian desert around 1930.
Cheetahs are sufficiently closely related to one another that transplanted skin grafts do not provoke immune responses,[10] thus suggesting an extreme population bottleneck in the past.
The genome of the giant panda shows evidence of a severe bottleneck that took place about 43,000 years ago.[11] There is also evidence of at least one primate species, the golden snub-nosed monkey, that also suffered from a bottleneck around this time.
Further deductions can sometimes be inferred from an observed population bottleneck. Among the Galpagos Islands giant tortoises themselves a prime example of a bottleneck the comparatively large population on the slopes of Alcedo volcano is significantly less diverse than four other tortoise populations on the same island. DNA analyses date the bottleneck to around 88,000 years before present (YBP).[12] About 100,000 YBP the volcano erupted violently, burying much of the tortoise habitat deep in pumice and ash.
Bottlenecks also exist among pure-bred animals (e.g., dogs and cats: pugs, Persian) because breeders limit their gene pools by breeding with close relatives for their looks and behaviors. The extensive use of desirable individual animals at the exclusion of others can result in a popular sire effect.
Before Europeans arrived in North America, prairies served as habitats to greater prairie chickens. In Illinois alone their numbers plummeted from over 100 million in 1900 to about 50 in 1990. These declines in population were the result of hunting and habitat destruction, but the random consequences have been a great loss in species diversity. DNA analysis comparing the birds from 1990 and mid-century shows a steep genetic decline in recent decades. The greater prairie chicken is currently experiencing low reproductive success.
During the Toba eruption, bottlenecks had existed amongst humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, cheetahs, rhesus macaques, orangutans and tigers.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 595 by mindspawn, posted 09-19-2013 3:48 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 599 of 991 (706890)
09-19-2013 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 594 by mindspawn
09-19-2013 3:34 AM


Re: More nonsense refuted
Mindspawn writes:
Obviously I believe in compressed timeframes.
I suddenly feel the need to list the things that you believe that that is contrary to settled science. maybe others can help out? I'm just trying to work out how wrong science is according to you and you alone.
1. Compressed time scales
2. No mountains
3. Less salty seas
4. Humans 150 million years ago
5. Accelerated evolution
6. Disputed evolutionary timeframes
7. Disputed Radioactivity decay rates
8. Genetics isn't advanced enough to detect bottlenecks
9. Geological evidence of global flood
(I'm just going to ignore all that crap about bean eating cows, miraculous olive trees and immediate fields of salt grown grass sowed by swarms of birds from tons of Noah gathered seeds on the mountains that where hills. And of course, accept fully that carnivores will find and eat rotting stranded fish instead of the animals released from the ark.)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by mindspawn, posted 09-19-2013 3:34 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by mindspawn, posted 09-19-2013 6:53 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 617 of 991 (706949)
09-20-2013 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by mindspawn
09-20-2013 3:08 AM


Re: If the ARK was real here is what we must see.
Don't forget coconuts - they float.
I'm betting that cows love coconuts almost as much as sea beans and they can eat the rotting fish and watch the mountains form until they've sprouted.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by mindspawn, posted 09-20-2013 3:08 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 675 of 991 (707095)
09-23-2013 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 668 by mindspawn
09-22-2013 7:26 PM


Re: If the ARK was real here is what we must see.
mindspawn writes:
More unsubstantiated comments. Are not floods proof of how hardy vegetation is, and how rapidly vegetation recovers? Evidence has been posted of the Japanese tsunami and the quick recovery of vegetation. I need your evidence now to show how most floods do not involve a quick recovery of vegetation.
We're not talking about an in-out flood, over in a couple of days or weeks - which is devastating enough as we've seen - this is a flood that covers mountains for a year. No terrestrial plant could survive being covered with water for a year.
After a cataclysmic flood which covered the mountains, the top soil has been stripped - soil on slopes has erroded and soil on the plains is now sediment and mud. All is saline. There is no stable top soil for plants to grow in nor are there any seeds. As the new land dries salt deposits on the surface increasing salinity exactly where the few seeds that may have survived attempt to grow.
The micro organisms and fungi that live around the roots of plants in normal soil and provide them with nutrients are also dead and the normal nutrients in the top soil have leached away.
It would take many, many years for the land to recover enough to sustain any grazing animals at all.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by mindspawn, posted 09-22-2013 7:26 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 689 by mindspawn, posted 09-25-2013 5:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 690 of 991 (707231)
09-25-2013 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 689 by mindspawn
09-25-2013 5:34 AM


Re: If the ARK was real here is what we must see.
Mindspawn writes:
Looking forward to seeing how you refute the ark story with more than speculation.
I'm afraid I'm going to disappoint you; you're simply trolling.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by mindspawn, posted 09-25-2013 5:34 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 724 by mindspawn, posted 10-08-2013 5:32 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 707 of 991 (707379)
09-26-2013 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 706 by Phat
09-26-2013 1:31 PM


Re: My Conclusion: Flood Story was a Parable
phat writes:
This is a solid argument. It leads me to conclude that the Great Flood story was designed as a parable...and is not literal.
Do you mean by that that before this evidence arose you believed the story as written?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by Phat, posted 09-26-2013 1:31 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 730 of 991 (708290)
10-08-2013 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 728 by mindspawn
10-08-2013 6:58 AM


Re: Geology is irrelevant; try addressing the topic.
mindspawn writes:
The cheetah bottleneck occurred a few hundred years ago.
From your own quoted paper:
Conclusion. The genetic status of cheetahs previously
studied for nuclear coding loci revealed 90-99% less genetic
variation than is observed in other outbred felid species
(11-15). Here we present evidence based on accumulated
DNA variation in rapidly evolving mtDNA and VNTR loci
that the population bottleneck that might have reduced
coding locus variation was ancient, estimated at several
thousand years before the present. The back calculation,
based on relative divergence of mtDNA in felids and mutation
rates of VNTR loci in other species, supports the
placement of the bottleneck on the order of the end of the
Pleistocene, about 10,000 years ago, when a major extinction
of large vertebrates occurred (6-8).

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 728 by mindspawn, posted 10-08-2013 6:58 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 733 by mindspawn, posted 10-08-2013 8:22 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 734 of 991 (708294)
10-08-2013 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 733 by mindspawn
10-08-2013 8:22 AM


Re: Geology is irrelevant; try addressing the topic.
Mindspawn writes:
read on sir
I did.
Nowhere does that paper support your claim that the cheetah's bottleneck happened 200 years ago.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by mindspawn, posted 10-08-2013 8:22 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(5)
Message 845 of 991 (708797)
10-14-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 841 by mindspawn
10-14-2013 11:29 AM


Re: If the ARK was real here is what we must see.
I don't believe much marine life would have made it onto the land at all, I believe the melting was happening on the landmass of Pangea, and water was flowing outwards from the landmass. Thus the water wasn't very saline, and there was more chance of terrestrial carcasses flowing outward, than marine carcasses flowing inward.
Oh dear, I think you're forgetting that the carnivores need to eat the stranded fish......

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 841 by mindspawn, posted 10-14-2013 11:29 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 990 of 991 (710677)
11-08-2013 2:53 PM


Jar writes:
And the bottleneck event signature is not seen.
The necks of bottles were wider then.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024