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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 305 (711160)
11-15-2013 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Percy
11-15-2013 10:16 AM


You are correct. I did edit the message to add the reference later.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Percy, posted 11-15-2013 10:16 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 305 (711163)
11-15-2013 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by JonF
11-15-2013 8:36 AM


And I have no idea how he could have come up with even a hint of calibrating U-Th dating from 14C dating in his reference (his link is broken but it's Radiocarbon calibration curve spanning 0 to 50,000 years BP based on paired 230Th/ 234U/ 238U and 14C dates on pristine corals).
I have an idea how he could come up with a hint, anyway. Anyone can see that Mindspawn uses 'google and hope' research. I'm sure it is pretty easy to find examples of assigning dates to U-Th results, and to a person who wants to see calibration, the juxtaposition of events and radiometric dates will look like calibration. Further, I think at this point his objectivity, if not his honesty are in question. He is simply incapable of seeing an error in his own presentation.
And frankly who wants to spend the time chasing down and refuting stuff every single post and then breaking down scientific truth so that even a buffoon can understand an error he does not want to see.
I'd do it, but again, I'd serve up the lesson with an inappropriate level of testiness and probably some accurate name calling. I'm sure RAZD would do much better than that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by JonF, posted 11-15-2013 8:36 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by JonF, posted 11-15-2013 12:19 PM NoNukes has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 63 of 305 (711174)
11-15-2013 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by NoNukes
11-15-2013 11:44 AM


I still don't see how he could have gleaned a hint from that paper, which is solely about using non-14C results to calibrate 14C results.
Some of the chasing is interesting and informative. But chasing all his errors and falsehoods requires a lot of effort ane writing ten times more than he wrote. Classic Gish Galloper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by NoNukes, posted 11-15-2013 11:44 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by NoNukes, posted 11-17-2013 10:30 PM JonF has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 64 of 305 (711198)
11-15-2013 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by JonF
11-15-2013 10:24 AM


Thanks! Another piece of information to add to the Age Correlations thread in its next incarnation.
quote:
Abstract
Radiocarbon dating is the most widely used dating technique in the world. Recent advances in Accelerator Mass Spectrometry (AMS) and sample preparation techniques have reduced the sample-size requirements by a factor of 1000 and decreased the measurement time from weeks to minutes. Today, it is estimated that more than 90 percent of all measurements made on accelerator mass spectrometers are for radiocarbon age dates. The production of 14C in the atmosphere varies through time due to changes in the Earth’s geomagnetic field intensity and in its concentration, which is regulated by the carbon cycle. As a result of these two variables, a radiocarbon age is not equivalent to a calendar age. Four decades of joint research by the dendrochronology and radiocarbon communities have produced a radiocarbon calibration data set of remarkable precision and accuracy extending from the present to approximately 12,000 calendar years before present. This paper presents high precision paired 230Th/ 234U/ 238U and 14C age determinations on pristine coral samples that enable us to extend the radiocarbon calibration curve from 12,000 to 50,000 years before present. We developed a statistical model to properly estimate sample age conversion from radiocarbon years to calendar years, taking full account of combined errors in input ages and calibration uncertainties. Our radiocarbon calibration program is publicly accessible at: sonny apache server along with full documentation of the samples, data, and our statistical calibration model.
(c) 2005 Elsevier Ltd. All rights reserved.
bold added
Note high precision and accuracy
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : abstract

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by JonF, posted 11-15-2013 10:24 AM JonF has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 65 of 305 (711199)
11-15-2013 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Coyote
11-15-2013 8:50 AM


Re: tag-team?
okay, thanks.
Will you post on the GD thread to ask mindspawn? I'll check with Percy
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Coyote, posted 11-15-2013 8:50 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 66 of 305 (711200)
11-15-2013 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Percy
11-15-2013 10:16 AM


Tag Team
I asked coyote if he would mind if I took over, and be said yes. (Message 55)
If it is okay with mindspawn, do you see any problems with us changing places (I would stop posting here).
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Percy, posted 11-15-2013 10:16 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Admin, posted 11-15-2013 5:35 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 67 of 305 (711207)
11-15-2013 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by RAZD
11-15-2013 3:39 PM


Re: Tag Team
Hi RAZD - that'd be great if you filled in while the thread delves into issues other than radiocarbon dating.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2013 3:39 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 68 of 305 (711208)
11-15-2013 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by RAZD
11-14-2013 10:29 PM


Re: Great Debate Message 17 and continued obfustication
In Message 17 midspawn states
Its not a variety of reasons, 4 of those locations are precipitation sensitive. That's one reason. The half-life of Uranium-Thorium is not independently established in a laboratory, but measured against existing dating methods and so is bound to evolutionary assumptions and this explains the consilience in the other 3 locations. ...
The problems with the claim about precipitation sensitivity are:
  1. it assumes that scientists that have spent decades of their lives studying these systems are so naive and incompetent that they have never considered these effects. This is bogus, as is clearly shown on the Grisino dendrochronology website.
  2. mindspawn has produced zero evidence that these three chronologies show precipitation sensitivity to such a degree that it would
    1. be mistaken for an annual ring -- matching the pattern of annual rings, and
    2. occur often yet
    3. still have correct dendrochronology dates for "the year without a summer"
  3. it requires that precisely the same identical precipitation pattern occurs high on the Sierra Nevada mountains, Ireland and Germany: these three chronologies agree to 99.5% for over 8,000 years of record. Not just two -- three different locations with precisely the same exact precipitation pattern ...
The problem with his comment about Uranium-Thorium dating is just plain ignorance. As pointed out by Percy (Message 50):
quote:
Creationists have a way of cramming huge amounts of misinformation into a small number of words, and the above 13 words are no exception.
  1. "Uranium-Thorium" is a dating method, not an element with a half life.
  2. Uranium is one element, Thorium is another.
  3. Both Uranium and Thorium have a number of isotopes. Isotopes are a family of types of the same element with the same number of protons in the nucleus but different numbers of neutrons. Each isotope will have a different half-life, except for stable isotopes which do not decay and therefore do not have a half-life.
  4. The Uranium referred to is 234U with a half-life of 245,000 years.
  5. The Thorium referred to is 230Th with a half life of 75,000 years.
  6. The half-lives of both 234U and 230Th have been measured in the laboratory.

Uranium decays into Thorium, so this is basically a parent-daughter dating system (see wiki Uranium-Thorium for how it works).
midspawn, Message 17: ... Uranium-Thorium dating even calibrates against radiocarbon dating and so these dates become meaningless as independent verifiction of radiocarbon dates.
Curiously this is not how science works, rather the consilience between the different systems makes the case stronger that they represent the same thing, in this case actual age. When we see this paired with the 99.5% precise accuracy of the tree ring chronologies and the overlap of 14C data between those chronologies and this Uranium-Thorium (parent-daughter) dating system that is developed from a totally different basis, it is a strong consilience. This means that his criticism of tree-rings is incorrect.
Radiocarbon calibration curve spanning 0 to 50,000 years BP based on paired 230Th/ 234U/ 238U and 14C dates on pristine corals
quote:
... Four decades of joint research by the dendrochronology and radiocarbon communities have produced a radiocarbon calibration data set of remarkable precision and accuracy extending from the present to approximately 12,000 calendar years before present. This paper presents high precision paired 230Th/ 234U/ 238U and 14C age determinations on pristine coral samples that enable us to extend the radiocarbon calibration curve from 12,000 to 50,000 years before present. ...
Precise and accurate.
midspawn, Message 17: Weather occurs in cycles and patterns, eg cold fronts. It logical that there would be approximately the same number of major precipitation events every year, and so the consilience is not unrealistic.
Of all the locations in the world which have definite seasonal patterns, scientists have specifically found 4 locations that are precipitation sensitive rather than seasonal sensitive to find their consilience.
But not on opposite sides of the earth. This is just wishful thinking with no evidence to support it.
mindspawn could try to provide evidence by actually showing that the same precipitation occurred in Germany, Ireland, Nevada and Japan in one year -- good luck with that.
midspawn, Message 17: 2) Lake Suigetsu is fed by a river in a small catchment area. I challenge you to explain to me how layers of sediment wash into a lake in seasonal patterns without a high degree of sensitivity to each significant rainfall
This too is wishful thinking combined with ignorance of how the layers are formed. The layers alternate between diatoms and clay. The diatoms bloom in the spring and summer and can go through several episodes of bloom and death and still create a single diatom layer. The clay layer can only occur when there is sufficient time for the clay to form a layer, and this is during the winter months when there is no diatom growth. The clay settles slowly, throughout the year, and it is only when the diatom deaths have stopped for several months that the accumulation is discernible independently from the diatom layer.
This means NO tide sensitivity, NO precipitation sensitivity.
This can be tested by taking large container and every day throw in a cup of clay and a cup of diatoms and see how they settle. This is basic soil physics.
midspawn, Message 17: 3) Ice cores are precipitation sensitive, each large snowfall/rainfall would by its very nature create a layer, please explain why those layers are annual and not sensitive to each major precipitation during the year.
There is a physical difference between seasons that can differentiate the annual layers
http://www.asa3.org/aSA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf (6)
quote:
... GRIP was dated by counting back annual layers from the surface to c. 14,500 BP (before the present, dated 1950) using electrical conductivity method (ECM, see below) and the rest of the ice core was dated on the basis of flow modeling and chemical techniques. GISP2 was dated by visually counting annual hoar frost layers back to c. 12,000 BP and from 12,000 to 110,000 BP by visually counting annual dust layers. ...
Again, it is absolutely absurd to think that the scientists involved with this work would be so naive and incompetent that they would be totally ignorant of the difference between snowfall layers and annual layers.
Again, just throwing out off the cuff claims is not any valid way to criticize scientific work.
midspawn, Message 17: ... You need a stronger argument than consilience to counter my argument of precipitation sensitivity of those locations, which explains the consilience due to consistent worldwide rainfall patterns.
Curiously, most weather does not occur in a lock-step exactly matched pattern world-wide.
The recent typhoon in the Philippians would affect the precipitation in Japan, but have no effect on the precipitation in Nevada, Ireland and Germany. Similar storms can be found in recent history for each of these locations that do not affect the other locations.
This totally refutes this claim of a "consistent worldwide rainfall pattern" ... and this means the argument based on it is invalidated, shown to be nothing better than fantasy wishful thinking.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : coding
Edited by RAZD, : added

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 11-14-2013 10:29 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 69 of 305 (711234)
11-16-2013 8:01 AM


Lake Suigetsu Volcanic Layers
I thought Mindspawn might become convinced that varve layers are predominantly annual if I pointed out a volcanic layer among the Lake Suigetsu varve layers that corresponded to a famous recent volcanic eruption whose date is part of known history, such as Krakatoa in 1883 or Vesuvius in 79. If, for example, the Krakatoa layer could be identified, and if the number of varve layers above the Krakatoa layer equaled the number of years since 1883, then Mindspawn must concede that varve layers are annual.
I was surprised to be unable to find evidence of any such volcanic layers in lake varves. There *is* research that has identified many volcanic layers in lake varves and matched them to known volcanic events, but only for ancient eruptions of pre-history.
Has anyone uncovered any evidence for a varve layer from a volcanic eruption whose date is known from history rather than dating methods?
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 70 of 305 (711237)
11-16-2013 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
11-16-2013 8:01 AM


Re: Lake Suigetsu Volcanic Layers
I'm pretty sure that there's no such layers known in varves, but they are in ice cores, including the Toba eruption circa 73 KYa (The Toba Super Eruption and Polar Ice Cores) (Another one for Razd's correlation thread?). See also Ice core impurities of volcanic origin.
ETA not varves but interesting The Lake Malawi Sediment Chronometer and the Toba Super Eruption. Lake Suigetsu and the 60,000 Year Varve Chronology has some comments relevant to Mindie's idiocy, but he doesn't have references for the volcanic layers. I'll see if I can contact him.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 71 of 305 (711240)
11-16-2013 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
11-16-2013 8:01 AM


Millennium Eruption of Tianchi Volcano
From:http://www.iavcei2013.com/iavcei_hp/PDF/3P2_3C-O23.pdf
Tianchi volcano, is a huge stratavolcano located on the border of NE China and North Korea The Millennium
eruption of Tianchi volcnao, erupted at somewhat AD 1000, is one of the world biggest eruptions in the last
2000 years. Historical documents reveal that the last eruption may occurred in about 300 years ago(AD1668
and AD1702). Activity of this volcano is monitored by all modern methods. Potential eruptions of this world most
dangerous volcano attract attentions from both the public and the scientific. However, better understanding of the
historical eruptions of Tianchi volcano will help us to learn more about the future activity. Here we report our recent
studies on major historical eruptions of Tianchi volcano.
And from:
"Identification and correlation of visible tephras in the Lake Suigetsu SG06
sedimentary archive, Japan: chronostratigraphic markers for synchronising
of east Asian/west Pacific palaeoclimatic records across the last 150 ka"
Which I was able to sign up for free and download.
In the 2nd paper:
Tianchi/Baitoushan Millennium eruption
of Tianchi Volcano
B-Tm 50 E 0.921 e0.941 e 950 NW 1,8
The 0.921-0.941 is a range of calibrated C14 dates for this layer.
These are taken from:
"Utilising the large number of radiocarbon measurements (n > 600) from terrestrial
plant macrofossils in the Lake Suigetsu SG06 record, we are able to provide precise and accurate
ages for the tephras from eruptions within the last 50 ka."
And since those dates are matched to the varves this gives a known historic eruption with a layer in the right place in lake Suigetsu.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Percy, posted 11-16-2013 8:01 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Meddle
Member (Idle past 1271 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


(1)
Message 72 of 305 (711243)
11-16-2013 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Percy
11-16-2013 8:01 AM


Re: Lake Suigetsu Volcanic Layers
Not really what you're looking for, and others have provided answers for you, but I found this article by Glen Morton replying to an AiG article on the Green River Formations. In this formation two volcanic layers have been identified and dated to 4.65 and 4.94my (based on K/Ar, Ar/Ar and fission track dating), with the distance between these layers being 150 feet. This gives a yearly deposition of 0.0157mm which is consistent with other findings. This could be compared to the deposition rate of Lake Suigetsu and its deposition rate and consistency with radiocarbon dating.
Also noted in the article was that there was a difference in the number of laminations between the edges of the lake (1566 layers) and the centre of the lake (1089 layers). The extra layers at the edges of the lake were the result of runoff from storms which did not reach the centre of the lake. This fact would seem to answer one of Mindspawns objections to the lake Suigetsu varves of sensitivity to significant rainfall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Percy, posted 11-16-2013 8:01 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 73 of 305 (711329)
11-17-2013 2:35 PM


Hah!
Hah!
RAZD you didn't consider the effects of rainfall on those corals!
See, that's proof of a young earth.
/mindspun mode

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 74 of 305 (711345)
11-17-2013 6:16 PM


Magnificent
RAZD, your Message 23 in the Great Debate thread is magnificent!
I wish I had the patience to do that.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 75 of 305 (711349)
11-17-2013 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by RAZD
11-15-2013 6:17 PM


Nicely done RAZD.
I think the U234-Th230 data is most problematic for mindspawn. There is absolutely no reason for decay data to be rainfall dependent, and I suspect he won't argue that such data is dependent on magnetic fields and neutrons. Whatever are the faults of such data, those faults are not linkable to tree rings or varves using any mechanism.
And by the way, mindspring own arguments have already ruled out using salt water spring tides. I wonder if he recognizes that?
But it ain't over. Never estimate the silliness of a mind that can allow his fingers to propose that there world wide similar patterns of rainfall.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2013 6:17 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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