Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?

Anything born (with the possible exception of those things that propagate by cloning or splitting) will die.Jesus, like the Buddha would have died one way or the other and as an agitator who spoke against the power structure and committed acts of violence against the dominate religion in the area death by an outside force was far more likely than from old age and bad meat.I'm not one of those Christians that subscribes to the cheap "Jesus death paid for my sins" snake oil but I do subscribe to Jesus as a sacrifice.I believe Jesus was sent to mankind as a teacher by example. Jesus, while here among use, was totally human. Not half God Half human; not God and Human, not God disguised as human, not God pretending to be human but rather just human.Imagine what had once been God finding itself just human, subject to not even being able to focus its eyes, control its bowels, eat by itself; subject to hot and cold and teething pains and totally dependent on others, unable to communicate, doomed from the moment of birth to die.So Jesus life, not Jesus death, was the great sacrifice.But the sacrifice was never meant to pay for sins, rather Jesus life was meant to teach us how to be human and how to deal with personal sins and failures.Jesus' death, horrific by the standards of today, was not all that unusual. In fact there were at least two others who were also crucified at the same time and on the same day in that small insignificant provincial settlement within the Roman Empire. It's likely there were hundreds of similar executions that day within the Roman Empire and for crimes as petty as stealing.So my answer is "It's unlikely that Jesus life and death were scripted" but it really doesn't matter whether it even happened.The lessons that the story of Jesus teaches are still valid even if it was all just stories told around the campfire. Love thy neighbor as you love yourself. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked (well, except some that really look better naked), shelter the homeless, educate the ignorant, comfort the sorrowful, protect the weak, stand fast in the face of adversity. He also showed that even little things, a fish fry or a party are important. Holding a door open for someone burdened, getting stuff down from a high shelf for someone, kneeling down so a child can look at you instead of you looking down on the child are all as important as raising the dead or giving sight to the blind. Do what you can do.For us and for our salvation ...Salvation is NOW.

No, what I say is that the lessons taught in the stories are important regardless of whether they were factually true. As I say, salvation is now, the life we live. Jesus teachings all revolve around how to behave as a human. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, educate the ignorant, comfort the sorrowful, love others as I would be loved, have compassion, consideration and empathy for all things.Certainly there have been other teachers; the Buddha is a great example that preceded Jesus by about 500 years and whose disciples spread his teaching over a wide area but without using force as was the case of Christianity. There is Confucius and Mencius and Lao Tzu.And the same can be said of the Buddhist teachings, they are valuable towards salvation regardless of whether or not there even was such a person as the Buddha. The teachings of Confucius, Mencius and Lao Tzu are all useful regardless of whether or not they really existed. Even the teachings of Sun Tzu are valuable.If there is an afterlife (I believe there will be) then after I die I will be judged based on my personal behavior while I was alive. I imagine that I will be judged to have failed to live up to the example Jesus gave us and sinned even more often than Jesus did but I hope that GOD through His grace, will pardon me.But that is far from certain and not much I could do about it anyway.

Have you ever read the Bible?Who trashed the temple courtyard?Who used the community money to buy sweet oils for his hair?Who talked back to his mother?

Too funny. Does that make it any less an offense?

Becoming angry might be reasonable but losing ones temper and turning over carts and vandalism are two different things. Honor thy mother and father. Saying I won't be around to use nice stuff all that long is NOT explaining anything, rather it is an additional example of sinning. How sad and pitiful that is.

In Message 25 I pointed out specific examples of Jesus sinning, specific evidence of Jesus sinning and you responded by saying "Sin by definition is a separation or an offense towards God...or humanity....and I see no evidence that Jesus offended either....except His own ignorant disciples" and "When the police run a red light they never give themselves a ticket ".Are Jesus disciples not humanity? Did they not complain about his behavior?And you think I am the only person that emphasizes Jesus humanity? Have you read the latest English Language Liturgical Commission translation of the Nicene Creed?

quote:

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For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.

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Became truly human.I certainly hope I have a different definition and concept of sin than you do from what you have posted over the years.I am accountable to the society I live in, perhaps to GOD but above all. I am accountable to myself.

In the stories he never apologizes or repents any of the sins. Yes, that sets a bad example.We all MUST first be accountable to ourselves since we are the ones directly controlling our actions. That is the purpose of the whole act of contrition. We acknowledge our sins, try to make retribution, attempt to not repeat those failures. We are the ones with the Knowledge of Right and Wrong.You would have to ask the authors why they recorded the events but not any example of contrition.But as I said, we can also be held accountable by others as well.Remember, while here with us, I believe (as do many others) that Jesus was just human. As a human we screw up. As a human Jesus too screwed up.

There is another point that should be emphasized.The Jesus described in John's Gospel is entirely different than the Jesus found in the Synoptic Gospels, far more narcissistic, doing miracles to show power, claiming divinity, less a humanitarian and less human.

Sorry but no faith is needed or even useful. I'm talking fact, what the actual words say. That's nice but again, irrelevant. The fact is that the Jesus described in John is entirely different than what is found in the three other gospels. This has nothing to do with faith or belief nor is it anything not commonly accepted. The gospels have traditionally been divided into the Synoptic gospels and John.And then you fall off into jabberwocky when you pratter on about "I believe that the author of John knew Jesus on a deeper level...and was not making stories up." What the hell is a deeper level?What do any of your posts have to do with the topic?

So it has nothing to do with truth or facts or anything but emotion. Got it.I notice you seem to have ignored all the other points in the post. Is that too an indication of a deeper level?

What does that have to do with what was actually written; the fact that the Jesus described in John is entirely different than the Jesus than found in the synoptic gospels or to the topic of the thread?

But that is NOT what the Bible says Phat as you would know if you had read it.The Bible says that we do have the spirit and knowledge needed to question even God. In fact man has always judged the Bible which is why there is no such thing as "The Bible" or "Universal Canon". Humanity decided what books to include, what to exclude and not just once but repeatedly and without agreement beyond the first five books of the Old Testament.But again Phat, what does that have to do with the topic which is " Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?" or what was actually written; the fact that the Jesus described in John is entirely different than the Jesus found in the synoptic gospels? But Phat, it is not the words in the Bible I question, rather I keep saying read what is actually written, not what someone says it should say. Well doubt is a great step, but it is only a first step. Look at what I actually say. I don't tell you what to think or believe, I only tell you to actually read what the Bible says and compare what is actually written to the story in the the snake oil salesmen shpiels. No, as I said that is just the very baby step.So can we head back towards the topic and stop misrepresenting my position and posts?

How do you identify those who walk in the "spirit"? What truth?

Again, you are simply showing your ignorance and your inability to read.The only mention of Mary in the post you are replying to is from the Nicene Creed and no where does it conflate Mary with the Holy Spirit.What Church is promoting her?Have you ever read the Bible?Did Jesus have a mother?

Because it cheapens the message as well as Jesus, makes God look like an evil bloody fool, discourages doing what Jesus said we should do, is nothing but a cop-out and turns Christianity into a "What's in it for me con-game".