|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Junior Member (Idle past 3491 days) Posts: 28 From: Australia Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The whole story is interesting.
It would thus make sense for God to have a plan that would nullify this development...hence Jesus. Of course I cannot prove the exact development of the story with scripture...I am suggesting a potential script. Humanity freely chose to become independently aware and responsible versus obedient and puppet like. This is why we have these famous arguments here at EvC. Many of our atheist freethinkers choose to be free of control from a Deity...actualized or imagined, while many of our self proclaimed Christians desire to be under the control of a superior spirit..(father/mother issues?)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: I'm not one of those Christians that subscribes to the cheap "Jesus death paid for my sins" I believe that its not cheap. Jesus death paid for universal sin in general. To jars credit, I agree that humans still need to be responsible with the gift they have been given. We need to try and do our best on a daily basis...but we will fail...time and time again. Thanks to Gods free gift, we need not fail as long as we dont "let go and let God"...one of the most misunderstood Christian cliches. In essence, Jesus becomes our pilot (not co-pilot, as the bumper sticker suggests) and we are fully responsible for a lifetime of learning under His tutelage.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
faithiest writes: Personally, if our scenario is loosely true, the reason that God allows us to struggle and grow is in order to build our character. It is said that one learns more from failure than from success.
Do you not find that an odd story? Doesn't it sort of negate the whole thing? Why wouldn't an all powerful God simply make us good instead of going to all that trouble?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I see no reason to invoke a god where it comes to failure or success. I'm a non believer an yet I struggle to do my best every day. I see no reason to invoke a god in any aspect of life on Earth. I suppose that if I were a non believer, the only reason I would have to invoke (or get to know) a "god" would be if I thought that He/She/It would do a better management job than I myself would or could do. Love would also play a large part in my decision...could this imagined Deity possibly give me something that I could not find among humanity?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Basically its all a matter of belief. Some of us think that God is un needed, while others think that He is.
Those who seek to frame such an argument will either presuppose a non existence or presuppose an existence of God. My only question would be to seek to understand why each side prefers its choice.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
whats your point? Our view of many stories and legends is "colored" this way. Some stories and legends have basis in actuality...others do not...and it is often not provable either way. If God exists He exists in our minds first...(He gets to the heart later, if people don't become stubborn and arrogant)
In any faith/belief topic, opinions and beliefs are all that can be expressed.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
. I imagine that I will be judged to have failed to live up to the example Jesus gave us and sinned even more often than Jesus did but I hope that GOD through His grace, will pardon me. I don't see any evidence that Jesus sinned.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
When the police run a red light they never give themselves a ticket.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Does that make it any less an offense? Whats the difference between Jesus losing His temper in the temple and God becoming angry over the idolatry? Jesus Mom was not His authority...as an adult. And He explained the misappropriation of the expensive oil. Sin by definition is a separation or an offense towards God...or humanity....and I see no evidence that Jesus offended either....except His own ignorant disciples.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Why? Apart from the fact that you (and only you) try and emphasize the humanity of jesus to the exclusion of divinity, there is no evidence that He sinned by definition. Its all about accountability. How sad and pitiful that is. Do you have a different definition of sin than I do? As humans, whom are we accountable to? If it were you who were sent by God, would you have any accountability to Him?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: You say that Jesus best example to us and for us was the life that He lived, right?
I am accountable to the society I live in, perhaps to GOD but above all. I am accountable to myself. If so, why was it never written that He apologized for "sinning" as you say? You also forgot to mention that He destroyed a herd of pigs who belonged to others....why was no apology offered there? Sounds like a bad example to me...unless He owed no one anything.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jesus Himself challenged the Pharisees to prove that He sinned.
John 8:34-4 writes:
34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father." 39 "Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." It is my contention that anyone who sees Jesus as simply human is of the same mind as these misled Jews.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: This is where your faith and my faith differ. Your faith is in logic, reason, and reality. You seem to think that any human that accepts answers (as faith) is engaging in wishful thinking. The Jesus described in John's Gospel is entirely different than the Jesus found in the Synoptic Gospels, far more narcissistic, doing miracles to show power, claiming divinity, less a humanitarian and less human. I would say that the Jesus in the Bible is absolute, since He is the living word. Of course, you would believe that human wisdom has uncovered redactors and human inspired passages as opposed to scriptural inerrancy. How do you know that it is not scriptural inerrancy? The Jesus in the Bible has different aspects to his character, emphasized by different authors. So too the God of the Bible.
Where then,do we begin? The answer is not so difficult. We must begin with the people who created the literature. This point may seem so obvious as to sound stupid. But the point must be made. Until a literature has been created we can only see a silent people. To a large extent this is true of the Stone Age man, for example. Men of the Stone Age may have felt and hoped, but what they felt and hoped we shall never know, for they left us no words, no literature. The people who produced the Bible were not, however, a silent people. (...)Critics often accuse the OT God of being cruel, yet the God written about is written through later authors who codified the tales told around the campfire. Thus, God was not directly written of....He was written of through the lens of the believers of that time. Not so, with Jesus. By the time of Jesus, we had direct witnesses and no mere tales told around campfires. Thus, the Jesus that was written of...even by unbelievers such as Josephus was well known within the context of that society. It seems to me that those of you who expose redactors seem to think that these writers...if they even existed, were tarnishing and changing the mythos of the character. I would disagree, and say that these writers were expressing how much the culture had embraced the character...the hero of the story.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: It involves bias, generated by faith. It is not cold, calculated logic which allows no such emotion.
What the hell is a deeper level?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
My point involves the motivation of the authors. The intentions.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024