Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?

whats your point? Our view of many stories and legends is "colored" this way. Some stories and legends have basis in actuality...others do not...and it is often not provable either way. If God exists He exists in our minds first...(He gets to the heart later, if people don't become stubborn and arrogant)In any faith/belief topic, opinions and beliefs are all that can be expressed.

So you're saying the medieval legends are as valid as the bible for your religious beliefs? You made a very pointed statement about the satan character that seemingly is not backed by your religious book. So now you throw out the book and beliefe what feels right. No retort needed. Writes itself. Fine. But don't try to put out your personal opinions and beliefs as to having some biblical basis. You do realize that this topic is about a biblical story, don't you?

No, what I say is that the lessons taught in the stories are important regardless of whether they were factually true. As I say, salvation is now, the life we live. Jesus teachings all revolve around how to behave as a human. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, educate the ignorant, comfort the sorrowful, love others as I would be loved, have compassion, consideration and empathy for all things.Certainly there have been other teachers; the Buddha is a great example that preceded Jesus by about 500 years and whose disciples spread his teaching over a wide area but without using force as was the case of Christianity. There is Confucius and Mencius and Lao Tzu.And the same can be said of the Buddhist teachings, they are valuable towards salvation regardless of whether or not there even was such a person as the Buddha. The teachings of Confucius, Mencius and Lao Tzu are all useful regardless of whether or not they really existed. Even the teachings of Sun Tzu are valuable.If there is an afterlife (I believe there will be) then after I die I will be judged based on my personal behavior while I was alive. I imagine that I will be judged to have failed to live up to the example Jesus gave us and sinned even more often than Jesus did but I hope that GOD through His grace, will pardon me.But that is far from certain and not much I could do about it anyway.

I don't see any evidence that Jesus sinned.

Have you ever read the Bible?Who trashed the temple courtyard?Who used the community money to buy sweet oils for his hair?Who talked back to his mother?

When the police run a red light they never give themselves a ticket.

Too funny. Does that make it any less an offense?

Many of the times it is legal for them to run the light. Of course there are exceptions and asshole cops out there.In other words your analogy sucks.

Whats the difference between Jesus losing His temper in the temple and God becoming angry over the idolatry?Jesus Mom was not His authority...as an adult.And He explained the misappropriation of the expensive oil.Sin by definition is a separation or an offense towards God...or humanity....and I see no evidence that Jesus offended either....except His own ignorant disciples.

Becoming angry might be reasonable but losing ones temper and turning over carts and vandalism are two different things. Honor thy mother and father. Saying I won't be around to use nice stuff all that long is NOT explaining anything, rather it is an additional example of sinning. How sad and pitiful that is.

Why? Apart from the fact that you (and only you) try and emphasize the humanity of jesus to the exclusion of divinity, there is no evidence that He sinned by definition. Its all about accountability.Do you have a different definition of sin than I do?As humans, whom are we accountable to? If it were you who were sent by God, would you have any accountability to Him?

In Message 25 I pointed out specific examples of Jesus sinning, specific evidence of Jesus sinning and you responded by saying "Sin by definition is a separation or an offense towards God...or humanity....and I see no evidence that Jesus offended either....except His own ignorant disciples" and "When the police run a red light they never give themselves a ticket ".Are Jesus disciples not humanity? Did they not complain about his behavior?And you think I am the only person that emphasizes Jesus humanity? Have you read the latest English Language Liturgical Commission translation of the Nicene Creed?

quote:

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For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.

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Became truly human.I certainly hope I have a different definition and concept of sin than you do from what you have posted over the years.I am accountable to the society I live in, perhaps to GOD but above all. I am accountable to myself.

You say that Jesus best example to us and for us was the life that He lived, right?

Do you believe that Jesus was accountable to Himself above all else?

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If so, why was it never written that He apologized for "sinning" as you say?

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You also forgot to mention that He destroyed a herd of pigs who belonged to others....why was no apology offered there? Sounds like a bad example to me...unless He owed no one anything.

In the stories he never apologizes or repents any of the sins. Yes, that sets a bad example.We all MUST first be accountable to ourselves since we are the ones directly controlling our actions. That is the purpose of the whole act of contrition. We acknowledge our sins, try to make retribution, attempt to not repeat those failures. We are the ones with the Knowledge of Right and Wrong.You would have to ask the authors why they recorded the events but not any example of contrition.But as I said, we can also be held accountable by others as well.Remember, while here with us, I believe (as do many others) that Jesus was just human. As a human we screw up. As a human Jesus too screwed up.

Yeah.... Sonny Corleone could do no wrong because his father was the Don. If that's your definition of sin then Jesus could have passed out babyburgers to the five thousand.