Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8896 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-25-2019 2:39 AM
20 online now:
Dredge, Tangle, Tanypteryx (3 members, 17 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,629 Year: 3,666/19,786 Month: 661/1,087 Week: 30/221 Day: 1/29 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
2
3456
...
9Next
Author Topic:   On The Limits of Human Talent
marc9000
Member
Posts: 965
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 16 of 126 (711625)
11-20-2013 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
11-18-2013 11:50 AM


When Proverbs 3:5 says, "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding," I don't think it means we should deny scientific observations.

I agree. The point of this thread is that we should be able to distinguish between useful science and wasteful science, or science that's only intent is to promote the destruction of Christianity. We should recognize the importance of leaving alone mysteries that belong only to God. I"m not saying that atheists shouldn't be permitted to study their secular curiousities all they want. They should just do on their own time with their own money, and not teach it as fact in public science classes. That's what they demand from Christians, but they don't apply it to themselves.

The context has to do with keeping God's commandments, being truthful and merciful, etc.

And questioning public searches for atheist support.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 11-18-2013 11:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2013 2:03 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 11-21-2013 3:55 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-21-2013 10:46 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 28 by ringo, posted 11-21-2013 11:05 AM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 965
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 17 of 126 (711626)
11-20-2013 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ProtoTypical
11-18-2013 6:31 PM


Re: God can not be wrong
It is not the word of God that is wrong because that is impossible. If good science appears to conflict with the word of God then it must be your understanding of the word of God that is wrong.

And the understanding of atheists that shout it from the rooftops, on the public dime.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-18-2013 6:31 PM ProtoTypical has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ProtoTypical, posted 11-21-2013 4:44 AM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 965
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 18 of 126 (711627)
11-20-2013 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by shalamabobbi
11-19-2013 2:36 PM


Re: I guess I need to chip in here.
The point is that there is no understanding in the bible itself. Understanding resides in the mind not the book. All we have is understanding. We choose to project it onto the book as we please. And then we get to assert things like, it was given to me of the spirit. I'm not really interested in traveling down that rabbit hole. I'll just note that even if that were true you still lean upon your understanding to arrive at that conclusion.

We have the capacity to lean upon our own understanding for lots of things. My point is that we should be able to distinguish between what we can understand and what we can't, or shouldn't waste our time (or public resources) with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by shalamabobbi, posted 11-19-2013 2:36 PM shalamabobbi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by shalamabobbi, posted 11-21-2013 2:02 PM marc9000 has responded

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 965
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 19 of 126 (711628)
11-20-2013 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
11-19-2013 3:04 PM


Surely you don't disregard science because of 6 words in Proverbs!? That's just crazy talk.

No, I never said I disregard science. I just disregard what is clearly not science, just metaphysical searches for support of the atheist worldview.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-19-2013 3:04 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2013 7:59 PM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-21-2013 10:50 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 30 by Atheos canadensis, posted 11-21-2013 11:58 AM marc9000 has not yet responded
 Message 31 by RAZD, posted 11-21-2013 12:50 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(6)
Message 20 of 126 (711629)
11-20-2013 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by marc9000
11-20-2013 7:43 PM


No, I never said I disregard science. I just disregard what is clearly not science, just metaphysical searches for support of the atheist worldview.

Oh, how convenient!

Now all you have to do is tell yourself that the science that you don't want to agree with is really just metaphysical searches for support of the atheist worldview. That way you can pick and choose what you want to accept and what you don't.

That must be so comforting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 7:43 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 21 of 126 (711640)
11-21-2013 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by marc9000
11-20-2013 7:34 PM


quote:

I agree. The point of this thread is that we should be able to distinguish between useful science and wasteful science, or science that's only intent is to promote the destruction of Christianity.

Obviously not. The point is - as usual with you - to demand a far-right pseudo-Christianity founded upon lies.

quote:

We should recognize the importance of leaving alone mysteries that belong only to God.

By which you mean that the dogmas of your sect should not be questioned.

quote:

I"m not saying that atheists shouldn't be permitted to study their secular curiousities all they want. They should just do on their own time with their own money, and not teach it as fact in public science classes.

By which you mean that teaching should be censored to remove facts contrary to the dogmas of your sect.

quote:

That's what they demand from Christians, but they don't apply it to themselves.

No. Atheists in general have no problem with real science being taught as science.

quote:

And questioning public searches for atheist support.

It obviously doesn't say anything about that. Nor does it endorse the worship of lies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 7:34 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6680
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


(5)
Message 22 of 126 (711642)
11-21-2013 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by marc9000
11-20-2013 7:34 PM


marc9000 writes:

The point of this thread is that we should be able to distinguish between useful science and wasteful science, or science that's only intent is to promote the destruction of Christianity

This is a weird combination of self-importance and paranoia.

Science just does science - great chunks of it purely for it's own sake but NEVER to promote the destruction of Christianity. That's just laughable. It's the sort of thing you would have heard from a 16th century zealot or a Inquisitor.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 7:34 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by NoNukes, posted 11-25-2013 12:41 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1777
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(3)
Message 23 of 126 (711643)
11-21-2013 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by marc9000
11-20-2013 7:36 PM


Re: God can not be wrong
And the understanding of atheists that shout it from the rooftops, on the public dime.

The beautiful thing about science is that a kilogram is a kilogram regardless of who does the weighing. A kilo of grass is the same for a Rastafarian as it is for an atheist and the Lord loves an honest measure. I think that is why he gave us scales.

The thermometers that measure sea temperature are not influenced by philosophy. The co2 monitors that measure atmospheric co2 concentrations are not swayed by feelings of guilt nor are they concerned with the possible economic repercussions of their readings. Ice melts at the same temperature for Episcopalian scientists that it does for atheist scientists.

"Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding." Proverbs 4:7


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 7:36 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19759
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 24 of 126 (711647)
11-21-2013 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by marc9000
11-20-2013 7:25 PM


No, we should take a second look, ask ourselves who found this evidence, what their motives were, and what use the evidence actually is.

Attack the messenger rather than the message? When there are thousands of scientists coming to the same conclusions based on objective empirical evidence it must be their motives that are at fault?

Because it wasn't created in the same way it is sustained. ...

Do you have objective empirical evidence for this or is it just something you tell yourself to explain why science doesn't produce the answers you want?

... When we try to use the laws that it is sustained by to explain how it was created, we start making small errors that quickly snowball into really big errors.

Like the evidence that shows the earth is over 4.5 billion years? The evidence that the universe is over 12.5 billion years? The objective empirical evidence that is left by their creation?

A lot of things humans go to a lot of trouble to investigate are a complete waste of time. ...

Like the bible? LOL -- a lot of things humans do is a waste of time, but that doesn't mean scientific investigations necessarily are a waste of time.

... Life is short, there are a lot of important things to do that go undone because the scientific community is so busy chasing reinforcement to prop up its atheism.

There are more important things that don't get done because of politics and false beliefs -- beginning with teaching proper science in school.

Like the scientific community does with Intelligent Design. ...

Ah, refuting bad logic and unsupported assertions is ignoring them and pretending they'll go away.

... Like global warming alarmists do with economic knowledge of the catastrophe that will happen if their brand of 'licence, regulate, restrict, prohibit' is put into place?

Compared to the catastrophe that is occurring due to ignoring climate change?

No, it's strong enough that I don't have to test it, ...

Yep - that's one way to avoid testing it, a cognitive dissonance way.

... the same way you're afraid to test yours with something other than Darwinism.

Curiously I test my faith with ALL substantiated knowledge, not some twisted belief based misrepresentation.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 7:25 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 25 of 126 (711650)
11-21-2013 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by marc9000
11-20-2013 7:06 PM


marc9000 writes:

I'd have to see some exact quotes, in their related context, before I could comment on that.

This thread isn't about specific issues but about the broad approach. You're arguing that there are some things we cannot know and that such things should be left to God. I merely pointed out that ICR, a famous creationist organization, disagrees with you.

If your point was actually that you're unfamiliar with ICR, then you could go to the ICR website, or take a look at Henry Morris's The Genesis Flood or Duane Gish's Evolution: The Fossils Say No!. The website and the books enumerate scientific evidence that they claim proves the accounts in the Bible true, thereby failing to, in your words, "acknowledge that there are some things that humans will never be able to figure out, to the extent to be able to challenge anything the 66 book Bible says"?

And CRS (Creation Research Society) and the Discovery Institute argue in pretty much the same way.

These significant organizations on the creationism side of the fence obviously disagree with you.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 7:06 PM marc9000 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by marc9000, posted 11-22-2013 9:03 AM Percy has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 26 of 126 (711678)
11-21-2013 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by marc9000
11-20-2013 7:34 PM


We should recognize the importance of leaving alone mysteries that belong only to God.

And these mysteries are identified by ... oh, right, your personal opinion.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings." --- so the Bible says in Proverbs 25:2. I can't find where it says that searching out certain matters concealed by God isn't glorious, and gives a list. How 'bout you?

That's what they demand from Christians, but they don't apply it to themselves.

The standard is the same: do you have evidence? For example, the Bible says the Sun exists, and it's perfectly OK to teach that as fact in science class, because it appears to be true. Well, so does the proposition, widely accepted by theist and atheist alike that (for example) the Earth is billions of years old. So that can also be taught in science class. You see how this works?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 7:34 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 27 of 126 (711680)
11-21-2013 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by marc9000
11-20-2013 7:43 PM


I just disregard what is clearly not science, just metaphysical searches for support of the atheist worldview.

If it was "clear" that the bits of science you don't like are "not science", then this would be known to scientists, who know quite a lot about science, rather than this being a mystery revealed only unto a collection of scientifically illiterate religious zealots who don't know what "metaphysical" means or what scientists actually do.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 7:43 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 11-21-2013 11:16 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16241
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 28 of 126 (711683)
11-21-2013 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by marc9000
11-20-2013 7:34 PM


marc9000 writes:

The point of this thread is that we should be able to distinguish between useful science and wasteful science, or science that's only intent is to promote the destruction of Christianity.


The key word there is "we". We are making that distinction whether you like it or not. We are society, not just your little cult. Our intent is not to promote the destruction of Christianity whether you think it is or not. If Christianity implodes because of what we do, that is not our fault, it's your fault.

marc9000 writes:

We should recognize the importance of leaving alone mysteries that belong only to God.


We don't know what mysteries belong only to God. If you think you do, you're pretty arrogant.

marc9000 writes:

I"m not saying that atheists shouldn't be permitted to study their secular curiousities all they want. They should just do on their own time with their own money, and not teach it as fact in public science classes.


It's a matter of secular money being used by secular scientisits for secular purposes. What "should not be" is one religious sect dictating to everybody else what is taboo.

marc9000 writes:

And questioning public searches for atheist support.


I'm not sure if you're making a play on the word "talent" deliberately or inadvertently.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 7:34 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 126 (711684)
11-21-2013 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dr Adequate
11-21-2013 10:50 AM


on disregarding
Remember that Biblical Christians have a foundation of disregarding all reality that conflicts with their beliefs including the contents of the Bible itself.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-21-2013 10:50 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Atheos canadensis
Member (Idle past 1077 days)
Posts: 141
Joined: 11-12-2013


(1)
Message 30 of 126 (711694)
11-21-2013 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by marc9000
11-20-2013 7:43 PM


I just disregard what is clearly not science, just metaphysical searches for support of the atheist worldview.

As self-appointed arbiter of what is true science and what isn't, can you provide a brief list of criteria that allows you to so confidently make that distinction? Something more specific than whether or not you agree with it, which I rather strongly suspect is the metric you apply.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by marc9000, posted 11-20-2013 7:43 PM marc9000 has not yet responded

    
Prev1
2
3456
...
9Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019