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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD
Atheos canadensis
Member (Idle past 2997 days)
Posts: 141
Joined: 11-12-2013


Message 121 of 305 (711718)
11-21-2013 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
11-21-2013 12:20 PM


Re: On the Road to Victory
Gish gallop works.
Unfortunately true. But only from the perspective of the uneducated or the galloper himself. Its effectiveness is more limited in the context of a debate with someone so formidably well-informed as RAZD. Not that being presented with facts will halt his gallop because, as Coyote points out:
He really is not trying to convince us as much as he is trying to convince himself
I think the hurdles of empirical evidence RAZD is placing in Mindie's path will eventually slow his gallop to a zombiesque shamble, although for the reasons mentioned above will fail to halt him completely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 11-21-2013 12:20 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 11-21-2013 5:01 PM Atheos canadensis has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 122 of 305 (711733)
11-21-2013 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Atheos canadensis
11-21-2013 1:58 PM


Re: On the Road to Victory
Jar writes:
Gish gallop works.
Unfortunately true. But only from the perspective of the uneducated or the galloper himself.
I think RAZD is showing that Gish Gallop is not a great strategy for written debates. Gish Gallop, properly used, overwhelms your opponent with a volume of questions that cannot be effectively handled. Whether the questions are off the wall, unanticipated, just rattled of gattling gun style, or whether you just chew up the time to respond, the opponent is made to appear as if he does not know his stuff.
In a written debate, patience overcomes volume. Every time. RAZD has not spared the ink in classifying the made up stuff as nonsense, refuting with evidence the stuff that is just plain wrong, and pointing out the irrelevant stuff.
In fact, RAZD has returned volume for volume, and I don't see much Gallop in anything he's posted. Not much return on investment for all of mindspawn's typying I think.
Okay, maybe some of RAZD's psychoanalysis is a bit over the top...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Atheos canadensis, posted 11-21-2013 1:58 PM Atheos canadensis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Atheos canadensis, posted 11-22-2013 8:55 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Atheos canadensis
Member (Idle past 2997 days)
Posts: 141
Joined: 11-12-2013


Message 123 of 305 (711767)
11-22-2013 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by NoNukes
11-21-2013 5:01 PM


Re: On the Road to Victory
In a written debate, patience overcomes volume. Every time. RAZD has not spared the ink in classifying the made up stuff as nonsense, refuting with evidence the stuff that is just plain wrong, and pointing out the irrelevant stuff.
In fact, RAZD has returned volume for volume, and I don't see much Gallop in anything he's posted.
Agreed. It only works when there's no opportunity for the galloper's interlocutor to respond substantively to the flurry of points. And RAZD has the patience to answer, which is impressive. He is, as you say, returning volume for volume, but his posts are very data-dense rather than conjecture-dense as Mindie's are. Hi latest post detailing the practice of dendrochronology, particularly the ability of dendrochronologists to identify false rings, really destroys Mindspawn's objections to that discipline. Now I'm hoping RAZD can exercise his considerable patience and post no more until Mindie responds to the utter demolition of his objections to dendrochronology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 11-21-2013 5:01 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 11-22-2013 9:32 AM Atheos canadensis has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 305 (711771)
11-22-2013 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Atheos canadensis
11-22-2013 8:55 AM


Re: On the Road to Victory
But we have already seen that the response to that was just TLDNR as expected.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Atheos canadensis, posted 11-22-2013 8:55 AM Atheos canadensis has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by AZPaul3, posted 11-22-2013 5:15 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Pollux
Member
Posts: 303
Joined: 11-13-2011


Message 125 of 305 (711818)
11-22-2013 3:25 PM


Cheers for RAZD
I would like to add my appreciation for RAZD's expertise and efforts. I have been following the debate with interest. Well done RAZD!

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 126 of 305 (711830)
11-22-2013 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
11-22-2013 9:32 AM


Re: On the Road to Victory
TLDNR
?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 11-22-2013 9:32 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2013 5:20 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 305 (711832)
11-22-2013 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by AZPaul3
11-22-2013 5:15 PM


Re: On the Road to Victory
Its supposed to be TL;DR and it means "Too Long; Didn't Read".
jar made it Too Long Did Not Read

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by AZPaul3, posted 11-22-2013 5:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by AZPaul3, posted 11-22-2013 5:27 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 128 of 305 (711833)
11-22-2013 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by New Cat's Eye
11-22-2013 5:20 PM


TYFCTUFM.

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(thank you for clearing that up for me.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2013 5:20 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 129 of 305 (711849)
11-22-2013 9:08 PM


skeptical about this...
What is this?
=================
Conscious Life News - News and Articles About Conscious Living on Planet Earth : Conscious Life News#
The Mystery of Gbekli Tepe and Its Message to Us
Carbon dating in use to destroy YEC. Or pseudo-science?
Let's see how this plays out....

- xongsmith, 5.7d

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Coyote, posted 11-22-2013 9:24 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 130 of 305 (711850)
11-22-2013 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by xongsmith
11-22-2013 9:08 PM


Re: skeptical about this...
Nonsense.
Ignore it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by xongsmith, posted 11-22-2013 9:08 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 131 of 305 (711855)
11-23-2013 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by JonF
11-19-2013 4:33 PM


Half life determinations.
As I was reflecting on RAZD's work in the great debate, I recalled that JonF posted this.
JonF writes:
Half-life of 230Th is on-line and tells how the half-life of 230Th was measured.
Your link points to a determination of the half life of Thorium 230 which is of particularly interest because it is based on a direct measurement of Th230 disintegration activity.
This technique has the advantage over many of the other determinations in that it does not rely on samples reaching secular equilibrium with another isotope. A directly refuting of mindspring's claim that Th230 half life measurements use "evolutionary assumptions".
I did not see a similarly suitable U234 measurement in your post, so for completeness, I located a couple of measurements of U234 half life using a similar method to the one described in your citation.
See method 2 at the first link:
Half-Life of Uranium (234) - NASA/ADS
quote:
The half-life of U234 has been determined by two independent methods. The first method involves a re-measurement of the relative isotopic abundance of U234 and U238 in normal uranium; from this measurement the half-life of U234 can be obtained in terms of the known half-life of U238. The value obtained by this method is 2.29+/-0.1410^5 years.
The second method involves the determination of the specific α-activity of U234 from the total specific α-activity and relative isotopic abundances of several enriched uranium samples. The value obtained by this method is 2.35+/-0.1410^5 years. Both values for the half-life are somewhat smaller than the currently accepted value of 2.69+/-0.2710^5 years.
The Specific Alpha-Activities and Half-Lives of U<SUP>234</SUP>, U<SUP>235</SUP>, and U<SUP>236</SUP> - NASA/ADS
quote:
The specific alpha-activities and half-lives of U234, U235, and U236 have been determined. The material used for each determination was uranium very highly enriched in the isotope under investigation. Accurate volume aliquots of U235 were electrodeposited quantitatively onto platinum disks and were counted in a medium geometry chamber. Accurate weight aliquots of U234 and of U236 were pipetted onto platinum disks, evaporated to dryness in an induction furnace, and counted in a medium geometry chamber. The specific activities and half-lives found are as follows: Isotope Specific activity (disint/min mg) Half-life (years) U234 (1.370+/-0.009)10^7 (2.475+/-0.016)10^5 U235 (4.74+/-0.10)10^3 (7.13 +/-0.16) 10^8 U236 (1.406+/-0.011)10^5 (2.391+/-0.018)10^7
Okay. Now I can turn in...

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by JonF, posted 11-19-2013 4:33 PM JonF has not replied

  
Atheos canadensis
Member (Idle past 2997 days)
Posts: 141
Joined: 11-12-2013


Message 132 of 305 (711896)
11-23-2013 11:59 PM


It's been three days since Mindie posted. Busy schedule or difficulty assembling a real rejoinder to the schooling in dendrochronology he just received?

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by NoNukes, posted 11-24-2013 12:05 AM Atheos canadensis has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 305 (711897)
11-24-2013 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Atheos canadensis
11-23-2013 11:59 PM


Mindspawn typically does not post on weekends. I think he last posted on the 20th which was only a couple of days prior to the weekend.
Too early to tell if he is stymied.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Atheos canadensis, posted 11-23-2013 11:59 PM Atheos canadensis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Atheos canadensis, posted 11-24-2013 12:33 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Atheos canadensis
Member (Idle past 2997 days)
Posts: 141
Joined: 11-12-2013


Message 134 of 305 (711899)
11-24-2013 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by NoNukes
11-24-2013 12:05 AM


Mindspawn typically does not post on weekends
Fair enough. I guess I was somewhat suspicious as a result of reading other threads in which he's participated where he suddenly disappears when even his considerable imagination is insufficient to allow him to object to empirical facts that refute his arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by NoNukes, posted 11-24-2013 12:05 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Adminnemooseus, posted 11-24-2013 1:26 AM Atheos canadensis has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


(5)
Message 135 of 305 (711900)
11-24-2013 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Atheos canadensis
11-24-2013 12:33 AM


It's not at all easy being on the bottom of the dogpile
Regardless of whatever his strengths and weaknesses may be, it is pretty brutal to try to be the creationist side at this forum. He may be wrong, even badly wrong, but my (albeit pretty lightly informed) perception is that he's done a remarkable job at carrying on discussions. You could have far worse creationist opponents.
And the creationists do drive the discussion. Be thankful that you do have Mindspawn.
OSLT.
Adminnemooseus

Or something like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Atheos canadensis, posted 11-24-2013 12:33 AM Atheos canadensis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Atheos canadensis, posted 11-24-2013 12:58 PM Adminnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
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