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Author Topic:   Hello everyone
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 380 (712392)
12-03-2013 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 12:02 PM


Re: on religion.
Absolutely. Remember I said religion is a map, not the territory. There can be may maps of the very same territory and each will be slightly different. Each will be more accurate than the others in some details, less accurate in others.
The map I have chosen in Christianity. Had I been brought up differently I would likely be a Jew, a Hindu, an Animist, Moslem, Atheist, Agnostic, Taoist ...
But I'm not, I'm a Christian.
Also, learn to distinguish between "Believe" and "Know".
I may believe very strongly that there really was a Jesus, but I cannot know there was a Jesus.
But whether or not there was a Jesus, whether or not there will be an afterlife and judgement is really irrelevant.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 32 of 380 (712393)
12-03-2013 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
12-03-2013 12:00 PM


Re: Wiggle room
I'm the only Bible believer on this thread and a YEC.
Yeah, you worship the Book more than you worship God and you follow the Book more than you follow Christ.
You really should call yourself a Biblian instead of a Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 12-03-2013 12:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 12-03-2013 12:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

scienceishonesty
Member (Idle past 3699 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 12-02-2013


Message 33 of 380 (712395)
12-03-2013 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
12-03-2013 12:00 PM


Re: Wiggle room
Hey thanks for trying to help me familiarize myself again. I'm pretty sure I remember you from a while back.
Let's not forget that belief in any religion comes from a desire for it to be true. I wanted it to be the truth and therefore it was. My main justification for believing in YEC was that I felt that I could show it to be equally viable to evolution although I would never suggest that it could be proven as being "superior" to evolution. Would you say that you hold a similar position currently?
I look forward to perhaps going over some of the "formidable" creationist arguments and showing you that it is in fact inferior to evolution. One invokes something that cannot ever be falsified and the other shows a very, very plausible explanation coupled by supporting evidence. Obviously evolution cannot be "proven" in a test lab, but neither can archeology and yet you probably have no problem with accepting certain archeological finds and squeezing them into your paradigm to fit the biblical narrative whenever it doesn't conflict with the Biblical record.
I've chosen to not spend my life believing as fact, something that is likely not true. It would be an affront to honesty and it would be a waste of my time, until I have some evidence to suggest otherwise. I've already wasted enough time in the past.
I'd love to discuss irreducible complexity and micro vs macroevolution some time. Also, speciation and "kinds".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 12-03-2013 12:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 12-03-2013 12:24 PM scienceishonesty has not replied
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 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2013 12:32 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 380 (712396)
12-03-2013 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
12-03-2013 12:11 PM


Re: Wiggle room
Just want to be clear: The religion that has no wiggle room when it comes to evolution is Biblical Christianity, which is what SIH must have in mind. Most other religions (I don't know of an exception) can be adjusted to accommodate evolution, even "Christianity" that feels free to discount the Bible wherever "science" seems to contradict it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2013 12:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 380 (712397)
12-03-2013 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 12:21 PM


Re: Wiggle room
I'd like to know who you are but I have a feeling you aren't going to say.
No, I don't really want to get into the old arguments at EvC any more. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 12:21 PM scienceishonesty has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 36 of 380 (712398)
12-03-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
12-03-2013 12:23 PM


Re: Wiggle room
Just want to be clear: The religion that has no wiggle room when it comes to evolution is Biblical Christianity, which is what SIH must have in mind. Most other religions (I don't know of an exception) can be adjusted to accommodate evolution, even "Christianity" that feels free to discount the Bible wherever "science" seems to contradict it.
Yeah, that's because the other religions are honest. If you have absolutely no wiggle room then you are just lying to yourself.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 380 (712399)
12-03-2013 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 12:21 PM


Re: Wiggle room
Let's not forget that belief in any religion comes from a desire for it to be true.
Oh, absolutely not. I know of people who came to recognize the truth of the Bible and put up a fight before giving in to it. I'm one of them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 12:21 PM scienceishonesty has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 38 of 380 (712400)
12-03-2013 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by New Cat's Eye
12-03-2013 12:29 PM


Re: Wiggle room
Catholic Scientist writes:
If you have absolutely no wiggle room then you are just lying to yourself.
And arrogant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2013 12:29 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 380 (712401)
12-03-2013 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 12:21 PM


Re: Wiggle room
Let's not forget that belief in any religion comes from a desire for it to be true.
I don't think so. Why couldn't you reluctantly accept the tenets of a religion if you were convinced that they were true?
You seem to be as dogmatically against religion now as you used to be for it. Maybe you should just drop the dogmatism altogether

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 12:21 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 12:48 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

scienceishonesty
Member (Idle past 3699 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 12-02-2013


Message 40 of 380 (712403)
12-03-2013 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by New Cat's Eye
12-03-2013 12:05 PM


quote:
Which one?
I'm actually not entirely sure, but even if I knew I would probably not wish to disclose it. Isn't exactly relevant anyway.
quote:
I'm not having that problem. I just check my religion at the door when I go into the lab.
How important and real does that make your religion when on the quest for truth then?
quote:
The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.
- St. Thomas Aquinas
Those are just semantics to make the catholic faith seem like it is reasonable and on par with rational thought. They will always seek to accommodate science as compatible as long as it does not directly conflict with the core teachings that the catholic church holds. I mean, come on, they still have a Pope figure for crying out loud and they can't even admit that they did wrong as a Church by murdering hundreds of thousands of "heretic" christians during the middle ages. It is always blamed on "people within the church".
quote:
Not all religions are like that. Protestants maybe, but Catholic doctrine accepts evolution for instance.
It is all about degrees of compromise. Typical protestant creationists also believe in evolution as well. Well, that "things change" but they don't accept that there is a common ancestor for all life.
quote:
Yeah, that's just standard noob atheist stuff. You might get over it one day. There's more to religion than just accepting baseless claims. And many of the claims of religion are not totally baseless. And there's still valuable stuff you can learn from religion.
It may seem nauseating to you because you've heard it a lot, and yet it's so profoundly obvious to the person that actually thinks about it without their "I want" lenses. It's simple, irrefutable logic so it has to be belittled with derision.
quote:
No, not "knowing" the truth, just "believing" that this is the case.
So you really don't know that God and Christ exist?
quote:
And its not for certain either. Its just that I lean that way.
Ah okay. Now here's a position I can identify with. I held this one for a while. I mean, after all, what is there to lose right? ...maybe only a tiny bit of honesty and integrity but not much else.
quote:
No, that's a non-sequitor. Its still a religion even if I don't absolutely know for sure, and religions can encourage question things and not just believe them blindly.
Religion can't encourage real questioning unless its of the specious veneer variety. That's what science is for. Religion asserts, it isn't about learning the truth no matter what that truth might be.
quote:
But it has been done.
Yeah yeah. I tried that too.
quote:
No, that's just how your old religion was. Not everyone's is like that.
Actually I got to the point where I wanted to believe that I just "lean" towards Christianity, believing that the evidence for ID is probably "just as good" as anything else and therefore justified it in that way.
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2013 12:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by nwr, posted 12-03-2013 12:51 PM scienceishonesty has replied
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-03-2013 2:55 PM scienceishonesty has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 41 of 380 (712405)
12-03-2013 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 10:34 AM


Re: on religion.
Then I would argue that you are probably not a devout Christian.
Sure, he is. However, he is not a YEC.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 10:34 AM scienceishonesty has not replied

scienceishonesty
Member (Idle past 3699 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 12-02-2013


Message 42 of 380 (712406)
12-03-2013 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
12-03-2013 12:32 PM


Re: Wiggle room
Give me one explanation why I should be more persuaded to reluctantly believe in your catholic variety of Christianity over Zeus and the Olympian pantheon or Hinduism or Islam?
Do you feel that the evidence is greater? If we're speaking in terms of the Bible, archeology has already shown that the Israelites grew out of the collapse of the Canaanite society itself and that they didn't come from Egypt in any mass Exodus like the Bible claims. Israelites were displaced poor people in Canaan who came together to forward egalitarian thought and eventually just formed their own small kingdom, at which time they decided to start having kings.
During the time of David and Solomon the Israelites were polytheists just like the Canaanites. it wasn't until after they were conquered by the Babylonians that scribes writing the early books of the Bible blamed polytheism as the reason for God forsaking them. "Yaweh" along with his wife "Asherah" were worshipped for years and years (there is even archeological evidence showing the words "Yaweh and his wife Asherah" inscribed on tablets found in Israel during that time). Yaweh actually came from the Canaanite chief god "El" (Ever heard of Elohim? Elijah etc etc). And of course, guess who became what we know as Satan today? Ba'al! It's all recycled mythology.
You seem like you are fond of speaking in rational terms, so help me by understanding why it might be a sensible choice for me to start believing in what you do?
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 43 of 380 (712407)
12-03-2013 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 12:35 PM


Welcome again.
I'm repeating myself. However, people seem to be giving you a hard time in your welcome topic, so it is worth repeating.
As you can see, we are an argumentative bunch.
I'm glad to have you on board, to add to our diversity.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 12:35 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
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scienceishonesty
Member (Idle past 3699 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 12-02-2013


Message 44 of 380 (712408)
12-03-2013 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by nwr
12-03-2013 12:51 PM


Haha yes. I noticed. it's kind of fun. I don't even know why I came back here. Maybe to just get some closure I guess. I don't expect to really convince anyone.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 45 of 380 (712416)
12-03-2013 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by scienceishonesty
12-02-2013 11:41 PM


Thanks for the story
scienceishonesty writes:
Hi everyone!
Hi scienceishonesty!
I just wanted to introduce myself and also mention that I used to debate here years ago under a different alias and had quite a bit of fun "disproving" people.
If you'd like, the admins have the ability to merge your current account with this new one. All old posts would change to this new name, and if you hover over your new name it will list both names. But maybe you'd like to keep them separate... sort of a visual indication of the paradigm shift. (I'm not sure how administration feels about that... but I'm sure they'll contact you if there's any issue to worry about).
HONESTY, admitting that I wasn't truly certain apart from wants or desires that the God I had in my mind existed for sure.
It's always a weight off the shoulders to simply be honest and deal with reality. It just wipes away the needless complications and gets down to the simple root issues.
I used to believe that the reason people were evolutionists was because they didn't want to "admit" that there's a God so that they don't have to be "accountable".
You may mean "atheists" here instead of "evolutionists." And no, atheists aren't trying to not-be-accountable. They are accountable to the people they deal with. And the people they deal with are much more difficult to please or even just appease than a God who only whispers in your mind.
The evidence for evolution may be imperfect but it's there and it's powerful and it is consistent with the evidence.
That's the power of science.
If it's ever not-consistent with the evidence... another scientist will point it out and update the theory so that it actually is consistent. And they are rewarded for doing this sort of thing (respect from their peers... grant money... nobel prizes).
Will it ever "get the final answer?" -Who knows? Maybe. Maybe not.
Will it always improve? -Absolutely.
Religion asserts certain ideas as true and those beliefs outrank anything else in life, including any inconvenient scientific discoveries.
This is a very good example of being honest with yourself and your ideas.
The next step is to also allow other people to be honest with their ideas.
This statement may certainly be valid for the way you understand religion.
But other people can quite easily understand religion in a different way...
Unless you can make a case (with evidence) showing how religion can/should only be understood the way you understand it?
Accepting the truth is not fun. I would like nothing more than to know for sure that there is some wonderful paradise waiting for me after I die.
For me, I found solace in moving my faith from "God"... an entity that represented ideals like love and hope and honesty... to putting my faith in those actual ideals... love and hope and honesty.
We know love and hope and honesty exist, "God" was just an anthropomorphized being that embodied those ideals.
Therefore, it's just as powerful to believe/trust in the ideals themselves. Sometimes it can even be stronger... more direct.
This sort of thing, though, is very personal and different for everyone.
Which gets us right back to what you mentioned in the beginning... being honest with yourself. Just be honest and follow the path that makes the most sense with your experiences. No one can blame anyone for doing that.
I thought I'd reveal my story because it's one of awakening. It's hard admitting this, it really is, but I really needed to admit all of this for myself.
Thanks for sharing. I find it interesting to go over other people's stories and contrast them to my own. If nothing else, abuse this forum for your own path of self-discovery to see what works for you. That's what I do. This is a great place to test ideas and learn mistakes and figure out what really does work for you. Have fun
I'll be posting an essay here on religion and honesty and god soon.
"Essay" sounds long and boring... but the content seems interesting to me. It is strange to want to read it and yet get that feeling of "awwww... stupid essay.." back from my schooling years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-02-2013 11:41 PM scienceishonesty has not replied

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