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Author Topic:   Hello everyone
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 136 of 380 (712648)
12-05-2013 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by scienceishonesty
12-05-2013 12:50 PM


Re: Some apology
It is the 95 point list of grievances that Martin Luther tacked to the church door. It's really short so start there.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 12:50 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 2:39 PM jar has replied
 Message 141 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 6:02 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 137 of 380 (712651)
12-05-2013 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
12-05-2013 1:53 PM


95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
Here's a website listing the 95 THESES of Luther (not "treatise") for reference.
Luther posted them as a list of errors he found in Catholic doctrine compared with the Bible that he hoped to debate. Instead the Pope called him a heretic and eventually excommunicated him. His theses became important planks of the Protestant Reformation that followed.
Here's some of the history from History Dot Com
The 95 Theses were quickly distributed throughout Germany and then made their way to Rome. In 1518, Luther was summoned to Augsburg, a city in southern Germany, to defend his opinions before an imperial diet (assembly). A debate lasting three days between Luther and Cardinal Thomas Cajetan produced no agreement. Cajetan defended the church's use of indulgences, but Luther refused to recant and returned to Wittenberg.
Luther the Heretic
On November 9, 1518 the pope condemned Luther's writings as conflicting with the teachings of the Church. One year later a series of commissions were convened to examine Luther's teachings. The first papal commission found them to be heretical, but the second merely stated that Luther's writings were "scandalous and offensive to pious ears." Finally, in July 1520 Pope Leo X issued a papal bull (public decree) that concluded that Luther's propositions were heretical and gave Luther 120 days to recant in Rome. Luther refused to recant, and on January 3, 1521 Pope Leo excommunicated Martin Luther from the Catholic Church.
I don't know why you are making an issue of this but there's the basics so maybe SIH will know what you are talking about.
By the way, among your multiple misrepresentations of history you said the Waldensians and Huguenots were as violent as the RCC. The Waldensians were a group of dissenters from the RCC that were persecuted and murdered by the RCC. Here's Wikipedia on the Waldensians. I don't vouch for anything Wikipedia says but you won't find any mention of violence on the part of the Waldensians in this report. They committed no violence whatever, but tried to stay as far away from the centers of RCC influence as possible, making their settlements high in the valleys of the Alps. The RCC would periodically pursue and murder them.
The Huguenots were a peaceable French Calvinist Protestant people who also did no violence, but they were slaughtered at the order of the King in the famous Bartholomew's Day Massacre in 1572 after some Jesuits had persuaded the King to rescind the Edict of Nantes which had formerly protected them. The king suffered great guilt as a result. Here's Wikipedia on The Bartholomew's Day Massacre
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 1:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 4:19 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 138 of 380 (712653)
12-05-2013 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
12-05-2013 2:39 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
Yet the Councils of Trent adopted almost every reform Luther mentioned.
A King and the Pope are two different things Faith.
Remember that the Huguenots were also a military power during the French Wars of Religion which just as in England had almost nothing to do with religion and lots to do with wealth, power and property.
My point is that the Protestants were NOT just peaceful folk that wanted to read the Bible in their own language but were every bit as intolerant, genocidal and violent as the Roman Catholic Church, perhaps even more so.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 2:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 4:34 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 139 of 380 (712655)
12-05-2013 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by jar
12-05-2013 4:19 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
The Council of Trent anathematized, i.e. CURSED, anybody who believed in an incredibly long list of Protestant doctrines. A curse from Rome is really a license to murder those they've cursed. Not that they'd do it except when they had the power. Openly anyway. The idea they adopted anything Luther said after excommunicating him and causing him to be kidnapped to protect his very life, is absurd. And how about some evidence, jar? You love to make scathing pronouncements against Protestantism, all assertion, no evidence. I can go find the anathemas of Trent myself, but you're the one making the ridiculous allegations.
You should also produce evidence for what you are saying about the Huguenots being a military power. Perhaps they were but back it up. And if they were so what? This world is unfortunately such that military power is needed for defense. Murder, however, is what the RCC has historically done and will do whenever she has the power to do it, murder innocent unarmed people who merely disagree with their doctrines.
The French King was Catholic and the massacre was a Catholic uprising against the "heretic" Protestants made possible by the King's having been talked into rescinding the Edict of Nantes which had granted religious freedom to Protestants. The Pope is given temporal power over kings according to their doctrines.
And there is nothing wrong with wealth, power and property as such either. Depends on how you got it and how you use it. Used rightly those things are blessings in a fallen world. Rome, on the other hand, got all three by stealing from their people and they hoard it and use it for murder and power over the rest of humanity.
You call Protestants genocidal, intolerant and violent as if anything they ever did even remotely compared to the orchestrated torture and murder of the multiplied millions done by Rome. I remember you making such allegations many times. You call self defense murder, you call a few cases of bad judgment intolerance and genocide, you call people who aren't remotely religious "Protestants" and so on and so forth.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 4:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 4:59 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 380 (712656)
12-05-2013 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
12-05-2013 4:34 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
Faith, Faith, Faith.
You continue to pervert and misrepresent everything and show your utter ignorance.
Who was Admiral Gaspard de Coligny?
And yet again you simply claim all evil was the RCC and the poor Protestants were just innocents.
What a mockery of reality you continue to create.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 4:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 6:30 PM jar has replied

scienceishonesty
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 12-02-2013


Message 141 of 380 (712658)
12-05-2013 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
12-05-2013 1:53 PM


Re: Some apology
The 95 Theses, of course I've read it. Putting treatise in there messed me up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 1:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 6:48 PM scienceishonesty has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 142 of 380 (712659)
12-05-2013 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
12-05-2013 4:59 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
Faith, Faith, Faith.
You continue to pervert and misrepresent everything and show your utter ignorance.
Who was Admiral Gaspard de Coligny?
And yet again you simply claim all evil was the RCC and the poor Protestants were just innocents.
What a mockery of reality you continue to create.
I referred you to two Wikipedia articles that show that the particular Protestant groups you accused of violence were indeed the peaceable victims of the RCC, which you are ignoring for some reason.
And here is a Wikipedia article about Coligny since you aren't going to produce any evidence but just keep making your unwarranted accusations and assertions. The Huguenots were sometimes tolerated, sometimes persecuted in majority Catholic France, but the article describes Coligny himself as of noble blood and highly respected in French society. He was murdered at the beginning of the Bartholomew's Day Massacre.
What was your point about Coligny? What evil?
He was head of the Huguenot army in the religious wars which were always started by Catholics persecuting the Huguenots. You can find this out by reading a number of articles on various people and events in that era.
Yes, Protestants down the centuries have in fact overall been the innocent parties, the victims of the RCC for sure. Not perfect of course, but it's absurd to compare them to the RCC at all. Nothing in the story of Coligny or of the Huguenots in general suggests otherwise, and certainly nothing in the story of the Waldensians, who were absolutely innocent of any violence whatever despite your absolutely unwarranted accusation of them. The Huguenots may have had some political clout in France for a while, which as far as I've read they did not abuse in any way, but the Waldensians were a people alone unto themselves apart from the mainstream of European society with no army and innocent of any form of violence against anyone.
In fact there is a reason Protestants would be more peaceable than Catholics, jar. It's not because as people Protestants are any better than anybody else, it's because Protestant DOCTRINE is peaceable and Catholic doctrine is not. I'm talking about real Protestants of course, who really believe the Bible. The Bible forbids violence and murder.
Catholic doctrine on the other hand, actual written doctrine you understand, prescribes torturing and killing those who dissent from its doctrines. That's what the Inquisition was all about, it's what the pogroms against the Jews were all about, and there's every reason to believe it's what the Nazi holocaust was all about as well as the murder of the Serbs by the Croats.
And it can can be seen in the Pope's condemnation of Luther's theses as well as in the Council of Trent which anathematized all the same doctrines that are derived from the Bible. Catholicism does not follow the Bible except wherever they can fit it into their own doctrines, but they even condemn those who follow it, while they follow their own manmade doctrines which often contradict the Bible.
There are some astonishing things in their doctrines that few know about. The Pope for instance is given the status of ruler of the entire world to whom absolutely every human being is required to do homage because he's considered to be the representative of God on earth (which, by the way, is practically the definition of "antichrist"). Offenses against the authority of the Pope are often the cause of Jesuit vengeance.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 4:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 6:45 PM Faith has replied
 Message 148 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-05-2013 7:25 PM Faith has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 143 of 380 (712660)
12-05-2013 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
12-05-2013 12:35 PM


Re: Evidence's role in belief vs. knowledge
They are called the books of Moses not only because he wrote them or authorized their writing but because they are about him and his times. The idea that somehow generations of Israelites and Christians managed to overlook the fact that it reports on Moses' death is just weird.
Weird yet true. Here, for example, is what Answers In Genesis has to say about it:
The New Testament attributes all the books from Genesis through Deuteronomy as being the writings of Moses. So, to attack the Mosaic authorship of the first five books of the Old Testament then is to attack the truthfulness of the rest of the biblical writers and Jesus Himself. [...] There is abundant biblical and extra-biblical evidence that Moses wrote the Pentateuch.
And they have some hard words to say about you:
The attack on the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch is nothing less than an attack on the veracity, reliability, and authority of the Word of Almighty God.
Shame on you, Faith, attacking the veracity of God's word. Tut tut.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 12:35 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 144 of 380 (712661)
12-05-2013 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
12-05-2013 6:30 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
Faith, Faith, Faith.
Do you even read what YOUR sources actually say?
Who was Admiral Gaspard de Coligny?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 6:54 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 380 (712662)
12-05-2013 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by scienceishonesty
12-05-2013 6:02 PM


Re: Some apology
Okay. If you have read them good.
What do they say about the Pope and indulgences?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 6:02 PM scienceishonesty has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 146 of 380 (712663)
12-05-2013 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by jar
12-05-2013 6:45 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
I read it. Apparently you find something else in it. Do tell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 6:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 6:57 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 147 of 380 (712664)
12-05-2013 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Faith
12-05-2013 6:54 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
Who was Admiral Gaspard de Coligny?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 6:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 7:29 PM jar has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 148 of 380 (712666)
12-05-2013 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
12-05-2013 6:30 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
In fact there is a reason Protestants would be more peaceable than Catholics, jar. It's not because as people Protestants are any better than anybody else, it's because Protestant DOCTRINE is peaceable and Catholic doctrine is not. I'm talking about real Protestants of course, who really believe the Bible. The Bible forbids violence and murder.
Catholic doctrine on the other hand, actual written doctrine you understand, prescribes torturing and killing those who dissent from its doctrines. That's what the Inquisition was all about, it's what the pogroms against the Jews were all about, and there's every reason to believe it's what the Nazi holocaust was all about ...
So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them. --- Martin Luther, On The Lies of the Jews
Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance ... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp. --- Bernhard Rust, Hitler's Minister of Education, quoted in the Volkischer Beobachter, August 25, 1933.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 7:33 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 149 of 380 (712667)
12-05-2013 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by jar
12-05-2013 6:57 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
I've answered all your absurd accusations about the Huguenots, the Waldensians and Coligny, proving they were not guilty of anything you accused them of. Your job is to address what I've said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 6:57 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 7:40 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 150 of 380 (712669)
12-05-2013 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Dr Adequate
12-05-2013 7:25 PM


Re: 95 theses, Waldensians and Huguenots
There is some reason to believe that parts of the Lies of the Jews are a forgery. I'd like to see a photo of all the pages of the original. And if it is genuine all I can say is that Luther hadn't completely freed himself of the thinking of his Catholic past. However, I'd also point out that some four centuries had passed since he supposedly wrote that during which nobody acted on what he'd written. Clearly the Catholic Hitler with his Catholic henchmen found it a good excuse for their Catholic desire to get rid of the Jews. Not that German Protestants didn't also participate, to their shame, but the "Confessing Church" of true Bible believers protested against the Nazis holocaust and the Nazis in general.
The exception always proves the rule don't you know. The rule is that in general --IN GENERAL-- the Protestants were innocent of violence against anyone while they were often the victims of the violence of the RCC.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-05-2013 7:25 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-05-2013 7:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 156 by xongsmith, posted 12-05-2013 8:29 PM Faith has replied
 Message 168 by NoNukes, posted 12-06-2013 10:52 AM Faith has replied

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