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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery for Great debate: radiocarbon dating, Mindspawn and Coyote/RAZD
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1998
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 271 of 305 (713238)
12-11-2013 5:21 AM


This one was very, very humerous to me:

mindspawn writes:

1) Uniqueness of location, most deposition locations on earth should show some annual sedimentation patterns and layering,....

No. Most deposition locations on earth should certainly not show any form of annual sedimentation patterns and layering at all. The Kalahari, The Great Karoo, the Cape Flats; the flats of Kwazulu-Natal; the volcanic deposits around the Great Rift Valley, etc. None of these would show annual sedimentation patterns at all. For a very simple reason; those deposits are not annually deposited.

mindspawn writes:

....instead of using many normal locations, only the most unique of locations are chosen for radiocarbon consilience, and each of the chosen locations have doubtful annual patterns.

Could he even describe to us what a 'normal location' is? Locations vary everywhere. From the ice sheets of Antartica to the deserts of the Sahara. They all are normal.

None of the locations referred to by RAZD have 'doubtful' annual patterns anyway. They are reliable. That's why they are used. And they show a remarkable degree of consilience.


    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1998
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 272 of 305 (713243)
12-11-2013 7:37 AM


This one was just as funny.

Mindspawn writes:

Yes, in low lying coastal regions the water table is dominated by salt water from the ocean. In spring tides, this would affect all lakes close to the ocean. This would kill freshwater diatoms who die when exposed to salt water. I have presented my evidence in earlier posts. I need your evidence that freshwater diatoms definitely CANNOT be affected by the rising salt water table in a lake next to the sea. I do not see that as a possibility, please tell me how its possible for the deepest freshwater algae during an algae bloom in Lake Suigetsu to survive regular influxes of salt water.

That's tested for. Hope he does know that , for example the different oxygen isotopes found in sea water are way different than those found in fresh water. Those are reflected in the resulting deposits.

Those are tested, mindspawn. Hundreds of thousands of geologists are not as stupid as you (not a geologist) pretend them all to be...

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Admin, : Rerender after clearing censored words list.


Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by NoNukes, posted 12-11-2013 8:06 AM Pressie has not yet responded
 Message 287 by Percy, posted 12-12-2013 7:51 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
JonF
Member
Posts: 4481
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 273 of 305 (713244)
12-11-2013 7:58 AM


I'm pretty sure the Suigertsu diatoms (and pretty much all diatoms) bloom and live very near the surface. Photosynthesis.
  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 274 of 305 (713245)
12-11-2013 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Pressie
12-11-2013 7:37 AM


I need your evidence that freshwater diatoms definitely CANNOT be affected by the rising salt water table in a lake next to the sea. I do not see that as a possibility, please tell me how its possible for the deepest freshwater algae during an algae bloom in Lake Suigetsu to survive regular influxes of salt water.

The response to this should be that there are no regular influxes, and that hasn't been established. The ocean tide goes in and out, but there is no direct pipeline to the lake. Mindspawn own references already tell him that. Percy pointed that out to Mindspawn in the last thread.

Yes, in low ***** coastal regions the water table is dominated by salt water from the ocean. [

Where is any evidence for this?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.
Richard P. Feynman

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Pressie, posted 12-11-2013 7:37 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4481
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 275 of 305 (713246)
12-11-2013 8:06 AM


Chuckie: It would be nice if the partipant of the other side could deal with the points being made one by one. Instead of flooding the thread with so much information.

Yeah, those nasty facts are so irrelevant! I think some moderation for Taq would be appropriate, but RAZD's just responding to the red herrings and misconceptions introduced by mindspawn. Science isnt' done in sound bites. It takes time and effort and, yes, lots of words to respond to a single sentence mindspawn tosses off. If mindspawn wants shorter and fewer replies he should focus on one issue and stoop introducing new ones.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 276 of 305 (713261)
12-11-2013 11:21 AM


Mindspawns recent set of posts have become too ridiculous to even bother with.

So many "what-ifs" and so little evidence...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


  
JonF
Member
Posts: 4481
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(4)
Message 277 of 305 (713289)
12-11-2013 5:20 PM


Mindie really should lay off teh hallucinogens

ANY location would be better than Suigetsu. They did not take into account that diatoms have regular die-offs that are not always annual. Any study on Lake Suigetsu which claims that the lake shows annual layering should have gone into great depth to explain away the fact that algae does not often have just one annual die-off.

Because Suigetsu is not a conclusive location, nearly anywhere else is a better location. Nearly every river on earth with a wide catchment area flows into a lake or the sea. There would be recognizable annual sedimentation layers in thousands of locations across earth .....and yet of all these locations the only places that seem to have consilience are ones with a strange set of circumstances like Lake Suigetsu. The rareness of the consilience is ridiculous.

It would be fascinating to dig down into nearly every lake on the planet, I predict you would find a strong trend that organic matter in annual layers in other lakes have way too little carbon for the annual layers in which they lie. Thus I predict that a definite 3500 year old layer in most lakes would show a 30 000 plus carbon date in a location that has more definite annual layers than the dodgy dates of Suigetsu.

There is no "fact that algae does not often have just one annual die-off". That's a hallucination.

Rivers do not leave annual layers.

Real scientists have been looking long and hard for decades for anything with annual markers. They will use anything with annual markers for dating. Suigetsu was chosen because it has annual markers, and was chosen for that reason alone.

Your prediction fails. Most lakes have too many disturbances to have annual layers. Varves are rare.


Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Pollux, posted 12-12-2013 6:45 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1993
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 278 of 305 (713294)
12-11-2013 6:33 PM


Too many facts are boring
So Mindie's latest set of posts, 100 through 108, are complaints that RAZD is posting too many facts and it is just really boring. If RAZD makes him think any harder he's just going to have to drop out. Oh gosh.

And then he spends the rest of his time posting the same gibberish that RAZD has already (multiple times) shown to be completely, absolutely, TOTALLY FALSE. What Mindspawn is posting is so far beyond ignorance that if I keep reading it MY head is going to explode.

Somebody help me stop please...........


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Pressie, posted 12-12-2013 5:37 AM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

    
Pollux
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 11-13-2011


(3)
Message 279 of 305 (713295)
12-11-2013 6:43 PM


Lake Suigetsu
I'm trying to imagine salt washing in on each spring tide sufficient to kill the algae, then clearing to allow more growth, but like Tanipteryx, I'm getting a headache.
Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Coyote, posted 12-11-2013 6:57 PM Pollux has not yet responded
 Message 281 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-11-2013 6:59 PM Pollux has not yet responded
 Message 290 by NoNukes, posted 12-12-2013 10:29 AM Pollux has responded

    
Coyote
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 280 of 305 (713297)
12-11-2013 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Pollux
12-11-2013 6:43 PM


Re: Lake Suigetsu and creation "science"
You two are getting headaches because you used to doing real science, not creation "science."

For the latter, belief replaces evidence.

If you believe something hard enough that contrary evidence will all go away.

How hard do you have to believe, you ask?

Why, that's simple. Just hard enough to make all that pesky evidence go away!

That's what we are seeing in the Great Debate thread.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Pollux, posted 12-11-2013 6:43 PM Pollux has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-11-2013 7:11 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1993
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 281 of 305 (713298)
12-11-2013 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Pollux
12-11-2013 6:43 PM


Re: Lake Suigetsu
I'm trying to imagine salt washing in on each spring tide sufficient to kill the algae, then clearing to allow more growth

Especially when the lake is what, 100 meters higher than the ocean? Those are some amazing spring tides alright.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Pollux, posted 12-11-2013 6:43 PM Pollux has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1993
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 282 of 305 (713300)
12-11-2013 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Coyote
12-11-2013 6:57 PM


Re: Lake Suigetsu and creation "science"
Just hard enough to make all that pesky evidence go away!

Well, Mindie's silly fantasies have been circling the drain since the beginning of the great debate, but they are so light on evidence that he just keeps floating them around and around no matter how much evidence piles up.

The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Coyote, posted 12-11-2013 6:57 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by xongsmith, posted 12-11-2013 11:00 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

    
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1871
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


(2)
Message 283 of 305 (713314)
12-11-2013 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Tanypteryx
12-11-2013 7:11 PM


Re: Lake Suigetsu and creation "science"
It is as if confronted with a yardstick when all he has ever seen is a ruler, that the markings on the yardstick must dwindle in size, getting extra markings within each real inch, in order to still be only 12 inches long.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-11-2013 7:11 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1998
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 284 of 305 (713329)
12-12-2013 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Tanypteryx
12-11-2013 6:33 PM


Re: Too many facts are boring
To me it's amazing. Points Mindspawn keep on repeating continually have been demonstrated to be wrong. Untrue. False. Multiple times. Yet he keeps on repeating them. As if they havenít been made at all. It's as if his mind is just blocked from even recognising reality.

I'm sure there must be some fancy psychological name for that type of irrational behaviour. It can't be advantageous to the development of the human race.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-11-2013 6:33 PM Tanypteryx has acknowledged this reply

    
Pollux
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 11-13-2011


(2)
Message 285 of 305 (713331)
12-12-2013 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by JonF
12-11-2013 5:20 PM


Mindie thinks he can explain the annual layers, but doesn't seem to realise he then has to explain why the C14 dates vary in almost direct proportion with the varve count,and indeed with depth of deposit in other areas without annual layers such as Lynch's crater in Queensland. Also I hope his reference to carbon in the deeper layers was meant to refer to C14. He makes it sound as though a smaller amount of carbon would give a larger age.
I remain gobsmacked by RAZD's thoroughness and patience.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by JonF, posted 12-11-2013 5:20 PM JonF has not yet responded

    
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