Summations Only

So there should be thousands of fossils of fish and other sea creatures in the Grand Canyon formations ... yes?Where are they?Enjoy.

Have you read Exploring the Grand Canyon, from the bottom up.?Haven't seen any creationist attempt thatEnjoy

and I repeat -- have your read it But maybe I should have asked if you understood it ...I didn't ask if you posted on itEnjoyEdited by RAZD, : ,,

Curiously, the minutiae are the jigsaw puzzle pieces that fit together into the big picture -- so you can't build a big picture without them, and especially without them in the proper place and orientation.When you try to build a different picture you have a lot of pieces that don't fit.Enjoy.

Do you realize that the sediments were laid down before the river cut through them ...That the land rose as the river cut through them ...That the land is still rising ... and the measured result today is consistent with the rise in the past ...That where the canyon cuts through the highest elevation is up a slope and not a low point of the ridge ... where an overflow would have cut through (unless water runs uphill) ...That there are speleothems in caves up the sides that document the ages ...That the formations in the canyon are not consistent with flood overflow but slow erosion ...And so much more

Sorry Faith, I'm not familiar with the geological term "unruffled" -- can you explain it?I have been to the canyon ... have you?Enjoy

You mean layers were undisturbed ... by what? I am not aware of any undisturbed strata anywhere ... so I don't follow what you are trying to say.Some layers are due to sedimentary deposition when they were below sea level, and are disturbed by marine animals and plants, some were eroded by wind when they were exposed, others were tilted by tectonic forces, earthquakes, or volcanic forces (you don't lift a mound of rock up without tilting it around the sides of the mound. There are records of animal tunnels and burrows, plants growing, roots penetrating.What do you mean Faith?Enjoy

There are some layers that appear intact at a great distance, but up close you see disturbances in the tops of the kind I have already mentioned. Some such layers show terrestrial type erosion on their surface layers. Notice the jagged tops of layers 6,7 and 9 ...Sedimentary layers are sedimentary layers, Faith, and yes the process of sedimentation is the same for each layer. We see this in ocean sediments and lake sediments, and it is a stunning fact of physics that sedimentation in water environments produces level bottoms, and these layers build up, along with the growth of marine organisms and plants ... the evidence of which you can see when you look close up.If you are going to claim that these layers were formed suddenly in a matter of days then you need to explain how animal burrows and tunnels and plant roots can form in these layers as they are laid down.The time it takes for form a layer doesn't depend on great age, but the accumulation of several feet of sediment does and the formation of different types of layers does.Clay takes days to settle (15"/day), silt a little less, sand less still ... thus large boulders should be at the bottom followed by gravel, sand, silt and clay --- if they are undisturbed layers of deposition.Shale forms from clay and fine mud. You have a shale layer near the bottom of the (fairly) horizontal top (blue) layers ... in the middle of the Tonto Group, not at the top.You have several layers of sandstone above the shale and two layers of limestone in between sandstone layers ...Limestone - Wikipedia

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Like most other sedimentary rocks, most limestone is composed of grains. Most grains in limestone are skeletal fragments of marine organisms such as coral or foraminifera. ...

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So you need two distinct complete die offs of the little critters here to make these layers ...If you mix these layers up -- and you need to because there are sandstones at the top ... and several other locations ... then you don't have an undisturbed deposition process.When you have the layers sorted into different kinds of layers then you have a problem with sudden deposition in a matter of days. But you do see erosion from across the canyon -- what do you think made all those spires? what made all those side canyons that branch off the main canyon at large angles? What do you think is carving the bottom of the canyon now? What do you think cut through a lava flow that built up a dam in the river at one point? What do you think makes so many parts of the canyon walls and spires to be undercut? What do you think makes the grand panorama of spires and bluffs so dramatic?Can you tell me which of these pictures does not show erosion?grand canyon - Bing imagesIs this what you mean? And how do you form that last picture with flood overflow? Just askin Why not? There are many different patterns of earthquakes including horizontal shift, which would not disturb the alignment of layers. In fact there ARE some layers that are tilted on angles and then eroded ... Conform at the bottom, which every single layer in the grand canyon does, because that is the way slow sedimentary processes work ... and their top surfaces as they build up are level ... But how do you get burrows from animals and insects that burrow into sand and earth ... how do you get those in solid rock that the animals and insects are not capable of burrowing into? How do you explain burrows of land organisms deep into rock laid down and covered during a flood event? ummm no, it doesn't work that way. If there is side pressure then you get a shift fault, a diagonal line, where one side lifts up along the other ... unless it is deep enough in the earth to melt the stone, at which point the stone changes (it's been baked afterall) to metamorphic rock.Metamorphic rock - WikipediaPersonally I think metamorphic rock alone disproves the flood deposition fantasy ...

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Metamorphic rocks arise from the transformation of existing rock types, in a process called metamorphism, which means "change in form". The original rock (protolith) is subjected to heat (temperatures greater than 150 to 200 C) and pressure (1500 bars),[1] causing profound physical and/or chemical change. The protolith may be sedimentary rock, igneous rock or another older metamorphic rock.

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Metamorphic rocks make up a large part of the Earth's crust and are classified by texture and by chemical and mineral assemblage (metamorphic facies). They may be formed simply by being deep beneath the Earth's surface, subjected to high temperatures and the great pressure of the rock layers above it. They can form from tectonic processes such as continental collisions, which cause horizontal pressure, friction and distortion. They are also formed when rock is heated up by the intrusion of hot molten rock called magma from the Earth's interior. The study of metamorphic rocks (now exposed at the Earth's surface following erosion and uplift) provides information about the temperatures and pressures that occur at great depths within the Earth's crust. Some examples of metamorphic rocks are gneiss, slate, marble, schist, and quartzite.

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How did we get all that transformed rock type on the surface of the earth if they were deposited by the flood? Yeah, its kind of hard to throw stuff around when you don't have stuff to throw around ... So rock was split and filled in with granite and then split and filled in again --- all at the same time? Fascinating. So this uplift process jumbled the bottom rocks but didn't disturb the upper rocks at all ... like when you have a layer of oil on top of boiling water it keeps the surface from being riled up with no layer of mixed oil and water pockets but a nice clean line ... Other way around -- the rising magma (not volcano) from the earth core caused the uplift that has lifted this whole section while the river continued to cut through it. This is why the land level rises around the river as you go down the canyon. Indeed, in a gradual process and over a very large area -- Colorado Plateau - Wikipedia

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One of the most geologically intriguing features of the Colorado Plateau is its remarkable stability. Relatively little rock deformation such as faulting and folding has affected this high, thick crustal block within the last 600 million years or so. In contrast, provinces that have suffered severe deformation surround the plateau.

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Not just the area immediately around the canyon, which is at the south end of the plateau ... uplift over such a large area explains how the layers remain relatively horizontal. Indeed, it is so hard to move things before they are in place ... It's not a stack of pancakes, Faith it is an area that covers thousands of miles in all directions, the Grand Canyon is only in a part of the uplifted area. Except the "mound" was not that local -- it stretched thousands of miles and only lifted 1 mile at the highest point of the canyon ... a very very shallow slope. The flood water rushed uphill? I don't follow ... Where did those rocks end up? The bottom of the canyon empties out onto a plain of sedimentary landscape with a delta of gravel, no big chunks.Nor are there locations where chunks were lodged along the way, jumbled and tumbled at all angles ... And this is what it looks like when you have an actual huge cataract of water breaking through a berm ... Thousands of miles of wide shallow channels with relatively flat bottoms and no spires, no V shaped channels. This is because the erosion occurs all at once, and scours the sides more than the bottom. The erosion pattern in the Grand Canyon is one that cuts into the bottom, not the sides, the sides are only affected when they become unstable and crack and fall into the bottom or when you have tributaries that flow to the canyon ... also with V shaped canyons.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : shale clayEdited by Admin, : Reduce minimum message width by reducing image width.

No Faith, it defies rapid deposition. Rapid deposition doesn't give you time for individual layers, just one jumbled mess.For sorted layers you need a deposition, a pause, another deposition, another pause, etc etc ... is evidence of a total break in the deposition process between the two layers, not a continuum of deposition. enough

So the moving water in your flood runoff filled the Grand Canyon in rapid deposition? In an open ocean there would be two tides per day for the sun, one just after local noon and one just after local midnight, and you would also have two slightly larger tides for the moon with a 50 minute later per day period compared to the sun.These tides would be comparable to tides in the middle of the ocean today -- 3 to 4 ft. -- and generally so insignificant that you cannot observe it when in the open ocean.The height of open ocean tides would also decrease towards each pole and would be zero at the poles. Indeed, with an open ocean the reach for the buildup of waves is virtually infinite, however long waves do not mean high waves ... then length of the wave is determined by the reach, the height by the energy and a 20 ft long wavelength (peak to peak) 3 ft high would not be significantly different from a 200 ft long wavelength 3 ft high or a 2000 ft long wave 3 ft high.These long open reach waves would be caused by the trade winds and would not keep increasing in size -- once they matched the speed of the winds there would be no further input to make them bigger.These waves would also decrease in height towards the poles and end up at zero height there (they would cancel themselves out). Now you are talking about speed of the waves, which is related to the wavelength ...BUT the water doesn't flow with the waves, it travels in a circular path with the circles decreasing in size with depth, and when the bottom is shallow compared to the wave height then the wave piles up -- this is what causes breakers at the beach, the waves trip over their stationary bases.What causes erosion and deposition is the interaction of waves and shore, with rip-tides and transverse currents.No shore means no rip-tides and no transverse currents ... that's why you get such "horizontal" depositions in ocean bottoms ...It doesn't take too long to get deep enough off shore for the impact of waves to be negligible.Even when Hurricanes come inshore they do a lot of damage at the shoreline, but offshore there is little effect.How do you build Antarctica?Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.Edited by RAZD, : poles

So when you want rapid deposition you call on rushing water and when you want rapid erosion you call on rushing water ... that is magically different from the rushing water you used to deposit sediment ... got it. Nope. If anything they would affect stuff by mixing it up in the same place -- water doesn't flow around the world with the tides or waves Faith, the water goes in circles that decrease in size with depth ... look at the colored dots below: Top view on the left with a section view on the right.The red dots on the left would be the yellow dots on the right. Do you realize that the height of a Tsunami wave in the open ocean is only a couple of feet and the reason they get so big is because of interference from shallow bottoms and land -- that's why ships are better off at sea than in harbor.As your magical flood waters mysteriously disappeared the waves would start to interfere with the bottom and they would 'break' and flatten out, losing energy in turbulent upper water but leaving the bottoms relatively quiescent. No no no ... you just don't have a clue how this works.During Hurricane Sandy the storm surge passed through here combined with a spring high tide (sun and moon aligned). The water rose and flowed inland coming to the foundation of my house and then went away. No big waves. No turbulent deposit of sediment. Just calm clear water. I went kayaking on it, launching from my driveway. The time is due to the orbits of sun and moon, The height varies due to other factors having to do with interaction with land masses. The basic tide is 3-4 ft in height. And before that the process of receding to that point would take the energy out of the waves. So the water would recede just like Hurricane Sandy's high water from my house. Again, no, that is not how water behaves. You do realize don't you, that in your scenario Noah's Ark would have been dashed to pieces on a barren scoured shore and then buried by multiple layers of fast hardening sediment ...And you do realize don't you, that none of this is mentioned in Genesis. Which would show erosion and scouring if what you fantasize were real ... sadly, for you, they don't. Where do the currents come from Faith? Magic? There are currents, but not because of waves. When the bible says the waters were calm?Enjoy.

And if you go to the moon the earth looks like a smooth ball. Some are some aren't -- sometimes the "disturbance" is horizontal.You can see some in the Grand Canyon. Probably they had little to disturb them. Some disturbances only occur in specific places, like earthquakes along fault lines. No fault lines no earthquake disturbances. No those can be see from a distance.But getting up close does show you that erosion has occurred, just not the kind you predict ... and the failure of your prediction is due to your hypothesis being wrong, not to how the earth actually behaves. A scientist throws out the hypothesis when this happens, you throw out the evidence. But this doesn't explain the top of the Tonto Formation (layer 9) or layer 6 ... or the complete lack of debris from all that grinding ... Yes, it is tiring to make up complete nonsense.btw ... is there anyone you don't disagree with?Enjoy

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Happy holidaze Faith,and when you abuse a pine tree remember ... there is a continuous unbroken validated tree ring chronology made from trees that lived from the present to the deep past -- 10,460 BCE and that the more ancient members of this proud lineage are German pines.Remember that the holiday you will be celebrating is Winter Solstice ... it has nothing to do with Christianity, but everything to do with the orbit of the earth around the sun.This is a time that cultures around the world recognize as significant, the shortest day of the year, and it was celebrated long before christianity tried to take it over.Remember that Christians have been waging war on Winter Solstice by trying to convince people that it has something to do with Christ. It doesn't.Remember that when you exchange gifts that this is a German pagan tradition, not a christian one.Hanging up a stocking? also a German pagan tradition.And, when you come back remember all these unanswered posts here. They are a gift to you to learn from.Enjoy.Edited by RAZD, : ..

ROFLOL. Contradicting the bible again ... bad bad FaithSo they are all running for their lives to get away from the next wave ... which is why the footprints are all orientated in the same direction right? What direction is that Faith?reallyEnjoy

This is how Cognitive Dissonance works: it becomes stressful to deal with contradictory information, so you devise ways to avoid it and pretend it isn't important, so you tell yourself stories ... "I can deal with it, just not right now, I'll come back to it later, yeah that's it, I'll do it later ..." and when later comes you start all over with the pretense that you KNOW the answer ...Enjoy