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Author | Topic: Why the Flood Never Happened | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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...scientific creationism is little different from the flat earth movement. Both are based on the same kind of scientific evidence and on a more or less literal interpretation of the Bible. In fact, scientific creationism, geocentrism, and flat-earthism are respectively the liberal, moderate and conservative branches of a tree that has often been called Bible-Science. The intense hostility expressed by the scientific creationists towards the flat-earthers, does not extend to the geocentrists, who hover on the edge of respectability among scientific creationists. Indeed, though the Bible is, from Genesis to Revelation, a flat-earth book, the geocentrists have combined forces with liberal creationists to cast the flat-earthers into outer darkness. From "Scientific Creationism, Geocentricity, and the Flat Earth," by Robert J. Schadewald (1981). http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/crea-fe.htm Perhaps Faith would like to have this subject in a new thread?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 |
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 310 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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I'm sure we've explained this to you, but let's go through it again. First there was a non-magical process of deposition, such as we can see happening today. Then there was a non-magical process of uplift, such as we can see happening today, caused by the sort of non-magical tectonic processes that we can see happening today. Then there was a non-magical process of erosion such as we can see happening today. You may find this hard to grasp, since it involves real things that actually happen rather than an invisible genocidal wizard doing magic; but if you think about it for a bit I hope you'll admit that things can happen even if they aren't impossible. In fact, it's quite common.
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 310 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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Since you don't even try to reproduce any of my arguments but just call them "bad" proves you haven't a clue what I've said. Maybe he figured that you'd know what your arguments were without him telling you. I reckon there's at least an even chance.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Faith writes: The Supergroup is actually nine layers but I thought it was more and it doesn't really matter anyway. But this is from Wikipedia:
The ...Grand Canon Supergroup of sedimentary units is composed of nine varied geologic formations... The oldest section of the supergroup is the Unkar Group We were looking at this diagram that shows 4 major layers in the supergroup:
It can be divided into sublayers, but they aren't shown in the diagram. The sublayers of the overlying strata aren't shown in the diagram either.
Look at the contact line between the Tapeats and the Supergroup: sure looks to me like the Tapeats was affected or the line would be straight. The sedimentary layers of the supergroup were at one time just the bottommost layers of a deep stack of layers. Stretching of the continent split these layers up into blocks, which then tilted to fill in the space created by the stretching. Periods of uplift and erosion wore these tilted layers down to nubs just a few layers thick. The exposed tilted edges of the layers eroded very unevenly and presented a rugged landscape. We see the bottommost remains of two of these blocks as supergroup strata beneath the Grand Canyon in this diagram:
The region then subsided beneath the waves of a shallow sea and sedimentation began anew, filling in the lowest areas first to form the Tapeats.
Yes, the weight of two miles of strata above would be the resistance that happened to stop at the Tapeats Layers tilting over while still buried isn't possible because no mechanism could do this, the evidence doesn't indicate it happened, and it requires thousands of cubic miles of sedimentary rock to just disappear. --Percy
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
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Another one for Faith:
{This should have never been posted in this topic. - Adminnemooseus} Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hidden - Nothing but snark.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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1) According to you all, what caused the uplift of the GC?
Orogenic uplift Orogenic uplift is the result of tectonic-plate collisions and results in mountain ranges or a more modest uplift over a large region. Thank you but I'm afraid I didn't get my second question worded as I had intended. The question I meant to ask was: 2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup? Thanks. (side thought: quote says Supergroup were never subjected to metamorphism, which I'd also noticed, but isn't the Shinumo Quartzite layer an exception to that?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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1) According to you all, what caused the uplift of the GC?
In short: Plate tectonics. Thank you. But I didn't get my second question worded as I had intended. I meant to ask: 2) What was the cause of the TILTING of the Supergroup? Would you please answer this one? Thanks. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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Then there was a non-magical process of uplift, such as we can see happening today, caused by the sort of non-magical tectonic processes that we can see happening today. I'm not clear which question you are answering. The one about the uplift of the canyon or the one about the supergroup or both in one? Sorry to say I didn't get the one about the Supergroup asked as I had intended. To get a clearer answer, would you answer again? 1) What caused the uplift to the Grand Canyon area? 2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup? Thank you. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup? Earthquakes.
... but isn't the Shinumo Quartzite layer an exception to that? Shinumo Quartzite - Wikipedia
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup?
Earthquakes. Thank you. This raises new questions: a) Did the earthquakes occur before or after the uplifting of the canyon area as a whole? And b) Do you have an explanation for what triggered the earthquakes? Such as tectonic movement? Movement at some different time from that which caused the uplift or what? And thank you for the information about the Shinumo but I can't really process it all. I know about the cliff formation shown by intrusion into the upper layer because of the hardness, but Quartzite IS a metamorphic rock-- metamorphic sandstone, correct? So I keep being puzzled how that particular metamorphic rock occurred in the close company of so much nonmetamorphic sedimentary rock. Takes heat and pressure, right? But it's just one layer in the midst of other layers. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sigh, I meant commenting ON the argument I've made. I don't comment on your argument.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sigh again. You are right that I haven't given any thought to the problems you are posing to me. But unlike those I have been complaining about I have not commented on them either, only to say I'd have to find a way to reinterpret them. But the others here are making judgments about my arguments apparently without having thought about them. OK?
The point about not understanding your argument is that I haven't spent time on it because I'm not interested in that facet of the debate. If I found it relevant I'd spend the time. Right now although I'm posting again about things that DO interest me I'm exhausted, not getting enough sleep, making weird mistakes of all kinds, but I want to feel I DID this argument and I'm not at that point yet.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Hi Faith,
I anticipated this question up above in my Message 274:
Faith writes: 2) What caused the TILTING of the Supergroup? You haven't replied to this message, so I don't know if you've seen it yet, but let me answer the question again. I don't know why RAZD answered "Earthquakes." The tilting of the layers of the supergroup is a typical basin and range phenomena caused by stretching of a tectonic plate. This happened early in the geologic history of the continent, and it happened again later, the effects of which are copiously visible all over the western United States and Canada. The stretching causes the stratigraphic layers to break up into blocks along vertical faults. The blocks then lean slightly. Here's a rough illustration of the process from the Wikipedia article on the Basin and Range Province:
The diagram is primitive and obviously hand drawn, but it's the best I could find. You should imagine that there are many stratigraphic layers, not just the two shown. The process begins at "A" with horizontal strata. In "B" the underlying plate has stretched, causing roughly vertical fault lines (which in the diagram are curved but need not be) in the strata above. The strata are now split into a series of blocks. In "C" the plate continues to stretch, causing the blocks to slide along the fault lines and tilt to fill the extra space. In "D" the process continues and we see the typical basin and range topography. Here's another image illustrating a couple variations on this theme:
The Grand Canyon supergroup layers are all that remains of an ancient basin and range of the tilted block variety. If you look beneath the Grand Canyon in this diagram you'll see two blocks of supergroup layers that precisely resemble the blocks of typical basin and range formations:
--Percy Edited by Percy, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Percy your link that was supposed to go to a message of your own goes to one of mine.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Faith writes: Percy your link that was supposed to go to a message of your own goes to one of mine. Whoops, sorry, fixed now. It was supposed to be Message 274. --Percy
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