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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 781 of 1198 (714604)
12-24-2013 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 780 by jar
12-24-2013 9:40 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
It is only after Adam & Eve had eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that either could sin. So let's look at what those transgressions were.
They hid because they realized they were naked.
Yup. That does seem pretty serious.
You blew it jar.
Job 31:33 is in the Jewish Bible and speaks of Adam's transgression and iniquity. Now your excuse is, in essence - "Well it wasn't very serious."
Pretty pitiful.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by jar, posted 12-24-2013 9:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 782 by jar, posted 12-24-2013 10:54 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 788 by ramoss, posted 12-25-2013 11:10 AM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 782 of 1198 (714607)
12-24-2013 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 781 by jaywill
12-24-2013 10:27 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Sorry but Job is not Genesis in case you hadn't noticed. The writers of Job make claims but don't provide any evidence but when you actually read the Bible, it never shows Adam sinning.
Now I don't doubt Adam did sin but it is not something that is mentioned in the story.
Read the Bible. In fact, just learn to read. What sin or transgression of Adam is mentioned in the Genesis 2&3 story?
Unlike you, I actually read the Bible and question what is actually written.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2013 10:27 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 783 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2013 12:21 PM jar has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 783 of 1198 (714617)
12-24-2013 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 782 by jar
12-24-2013 10:54 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Sorry but Job is not Genesis in case you hadn't noticed.
Your comment was that the Jews never considered Adam as having sinned.
I suppose you think they never read the book of Job in their own Hebrew Bible ? God through the prophet Ezekiel mentions Job in Ezek. 14:14;20.
The mentioning of "three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job" as exemplary righteous men suggests that they were not only righteous but men of renown and fame among the Jews.
Interestingly, Adam is not mentioned as a pillar of righteousness by God.
You still trying to dance around Job 31:33 ?
The writers of Job make claims but don't provide any evidence but when you actually read the Bible, it never shows Adam sinning.
You're so far behind that you think you're out in front of the pack.
It is understood by the audience of Job (who happened to be men of renown wisdom themselves), who Adam was.
quote:
"If I covered my TRANSGRESSIONS as Adam did by hiding my INIQUITY in my bosom ..."
I don't think either Job's audience of the wise men OR the Jews reading Genesis and Job in their Bible, had to stop, scratch their heads and say "Adam? Adam's transgressions? Adam's iniquity? What on earth is he talking about?"
That was the latter marketing concocted by one jar.
Now I don't doubt Adam did sin
If you noticed it, why shouldn't the Jews of old have noticed it as well ?
but it is not something that is mentioned in the story.
God mentions Adam's transgression -
quote:
"Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat? And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate." (Gen. 3:11)
"And to Adam He said, Because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree concerning which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it; Cursed is the ground because of you ..." (Gen. 3:17)

Sounds like Adam sinned, doesn't it ?
Read the Bible. In fact, just learn to read. What sin or transgression of Adam is mentioned in the Genesis 2&3 story?
Does it sound like God is happy with what Adam did or unhappy ?
Did Adam keep the commandment of God or break it ?
Unlike you, I actually read the Bible and question what is actually written.
You're making a fool of yourself.
And I question things in the Bible quite much.
The seeking people (you know, the ones in my imaginary audience) will notice how hair brain your comments are and decide that they do not want to be in such gross misunderstanding of the Scriptures as you display here.
You are doing them a service. This is how I myself got interested in carefully reading the word of God for myself. That is by noticing how some people could derive such ridiculous concepts from reading it with hearts set on something other than what was being taught.
Keep it up. Argue some more. Tell us all about how you alone can read the Bible. And tell us how Adam's disobedience was really no serious affair.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 782 by jar, posted 12-24-2013 10:54 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 784 by jar, posted 12-24-2013 1:11 PM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 784 of 1198 (714620)
12-24-2013 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 783 by jaywill
12-24-2013 12:21 PM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Learn to read.
"If I covered my TRANSGRESSIONS as Adam did by hiding my INIQUITY in my bosom ..."
That says Job hid his problems like Adam hid.
Adam hid from God because he was naked.
Read what it says.
No, it does not sound like Adam sinned by eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
It is only after eating the fruit that Adam or Eve could even have a concept that they should obey the God character in the story.
Tell us all about how you alone can read the Bible. And tell us how Adam's disobedience was really no serious affair.
Again, you resort to misrepresentation. I have never made a claim that I alone can read the Bible although the evidence is that Biblical Christians either cannot or will not honestly read the Bible.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 783 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2013 12:21 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 785 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2013 2:09 PM jar has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 785 of 1198 (714625)
12-24-2013 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 784 by jar
12-24-2013 1:11 PM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
That says Job hid his problems like Adam hid.
1.) The verse proves Adam had transgressions / iniquity.
2.) Job in chapter 31 is somewhat boasting of his uprightness, righteousness, integrity. This is all about him trying to understand WHY he is being ill treated by God.
His three "helpful" friends keep suggesting that there is some UNKNOWN sin that Job must be hiding. God must know about it and THAT is why Job is suffering, so they keep saying.
Job is arguing with them that he is not aware of anything wrong that he has done. He is unware of any transgression or iniquity that he has concealed from God or man.
This is his argument with God and with his "helpers" - "Oh that I had someone to hear me! Let the Almighty answer me. And let the accuser write up the charge." (31:35)
Adam hid from God because he was naked.
I do not mind someone saying that I should read the Bible more.
Nor do I mind someone saying I should improve my reading skills.
But you can't salvage your error that the Jewish readers didn't notice the sin of Adam.
Now you are somewhat shifting the discussion. Yes he hid because he was naked. But he EXCUSED himself from the transgression of disobeying the command not to eat of the forbidden fruit.
quote:
"And the man said, The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate." (v.12)
He had sinned against God. And he also attempted to cover it up with an excuse much as Job was saying.
Read what it says.
No, it does not sound like Adam sinned by eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Adam sought to shift the blame to the woman because he knew that he had sinned in disobeying God's one and only prohibition.
"The woman, she made me do it" is basically Adam's way of absolving himself from the guilt of his transgression.
You are the one who needs to READ it with an un-padlocked mind so eager to kick Paul away from teaching of God's salvation.
That is your problem. You are so very eager to "UN-Paulize" the teaching from the account.
Now once again, God's command was this -
quote:
" And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may eat freely, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat ..." (v.16,17a)
Did you get that ?
" ... of it you shall not eat ..."
Eve's understanding was the same. God had commanded them NOT to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (v.3)[/b]
quote:
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die." (v.3)
There are some other things going on here. However, don't try to obscure the point that Adam and Eve had transgressed God's commandment. That was a sin. Other issues like the nakedness and so on, do not detract from this point.
It is only after eating the fruit that Adam or Eve could even have a concept that they should obey the God character in the story.
You have argued this before.
God is the Creator. And God commanded them expecting them to obey the command. God did not NOT command them because they as of yet did not have the knowledge of good and evil.
Now I have a choice. I can believe YOU that God was not wise to command them to obey and wrong for holding them responsible for disobeying, OR I can believe the Scriptures that Adam transgressed, disobeyed, broke the command of God, and needed forgivness.
I choose the far more biblical view.
Your philosophy about it is not adequate.
And it is no surprise that the outcome of taking YOUR philosophy is the slanderous accusation that God was not too bright.
So the serpent says that God lied.
And the serpent also says that God was not too bright.
You better stop having your Bible Study with the serpent.
He's putting slanders against God into your mind.
If that wasn't bad enough he lying to you that you must be commended for reading the Bible right and questioning it right.
God alone has the ground and the authority to define the good and the evil for all creation. When Adam decided to take the knowledge of good and evil he broke away in independence to decide for himself the moral ground of his life.
quote:
"And God said, Who told you that you are naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat ? " (v.11)
If God said that it was OK for the man and His wife to be naked, then by the ultimate moral standard of being - it was good.
Now I grant any readers that there are some rather mysterious things about the story. But let's not cause any of these mysterious matters to obscure the more obvious fact that Adam had transgressed. And he was dealt with for his transgression.
jaywill:
Tell us all about how you alone can read the Bible. And tell us how Adam's disobedience was really no serious affair.
Again, you resort to misrepresentation. I have never made a claim that I alone can read the Bible although the evidence is that Biblical Christians either cannot or will not honestly read the Bible.
Okay. You did not say "You alone." But why should you continue to suggest that I don't read the Bible? IE. "Oh you don't read the Bible like me. Read it. Read it like me."
So I won't say that you boast that you ALONE can read the bible.
And why don't YOU stop telling me "Read the Bible. Read the Bible" as if I keep it closed.
You have no problem dishing out exaggerations.
Then you have a glass jaw when one comes your own way.
I am not going over this matter of Adam's sin with you any more.
I don't think it is necessary.
But I will discuss (or preach) however way you think of it, about this tree of life verses the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
We went over that a lot. But I think some things still could be talked about concerning this dichotomy.
God said "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and live forever - " (3:22)
I sympathize with any Bible reader who considers this passage strange. I am willing to listen to a serious none blasphemous viewpoint about it. But I will present my view of it. And I'm a lover of Christ. And Christ is the center and circumference of the Bible as far as I am concerned.
Beside God as the Creator, the Almighty ground of all being, WHO ELSE can define what the good and evil is ?
There can only be ONE God.
Lucifer had to learn that.
And Adam had to learn that as well.
And that for their OWN good as well.
All other beings in existence are DEPENDENT upon God. That is not bad. That is quite a glorious thing really.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 784 by jar, posted 12-24-2013 1:11 PM jar has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 786 of 1198 (714652)
12-25-2013 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 780 by jar
12-24-2013 9:40 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Nah.. that isn't the worse transgression.
The worse one was trying to avoid responsibly for their own actions. They screwed up, and tried to lay the blame on others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by jar, posted 12-24-2013 9:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 787 by jar, posted 12-25-2013 11:07 AM ramoss has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 787 of 1198 (714653)
12-25-2013 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 786 by ramoss
12-25-2013 11:06 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Yeah, very true. But remember they just learned about naught and nice. But they may have gotten coal that Christmas.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by ramoss, posted 12-25-2013 11:06 AM ramoss has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 788 of 1198 (714654)
12-25-2013 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 781 by jaywill
12-24-2013 10:27 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
You take a bad translation, and make invalid remarks about it.
The less confusing translation would be 'Did I hide my transgressions like Adam'.
It's not acknowledging your error, and repent.
Sorry.. but you got it all wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 781 by jaywill, posted 12-24-2013 10:27 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 789 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2013 7:30 AM ramoss has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 789 of 1198 (714687)
12-26-2013 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 788 by ramoss
12-25-2013 11:10 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
ramoss writes:
You take a bad translation, and make invalid remarks about it.
The less confusing translation would be 'Did I hide my transgressions like Adam'.
It's not acknowledging your error, and repent.
Sorry.. but you got it all wrong.
Your supposedly improved translation does nothing for jar's case. It still mentions the hiding of "transgressions" like Adam.
Here are some other translations if you don't like the RcV.
New American Standard Bible
"Have I covered my transgressions like Adam, By hiding my iniquity in my bosom,
King James Bible
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:
Jubilee Bible 2000
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding my iniquity in my bosom;
King James 2000 Bible
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding my iniquity in my bosom:
American King James Version
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding my iniquity in my bosom:
American Standard Version
If like Adam I have covered my transgressions, By hiding mine iniquity in my bosom,
Darby Bible Translation
If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom,
English Revised Version
If like Adam I covered my transgressions, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom;
Webster's Bible Translation
If I have covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding my iniquity in my bosom:
World English Bible
if like Adam I have covered my transgressions, by hiding my iniquity in my heart,
Young's Literal Translation
If I have covered as Adam my transgressions, To hide in my bosom mine iniquity,
Some paraphrase versions have "people" instead of Adam. I think this comment on the verse is correct.
Gills' Exposition of the Entire Bible
If I covered my transgressions as Adam,.... and here he acknowledges he was guilty of transgressing the law of God, and that in many instances; for he speaks of his "transgressions" in the plural number; but then he did not seek to cover them from God or men, but frankly and ingenuously confessed them to both; he did not cover them, palliate, excuse, and extenuate them, as Adam did his, by laying the blame to his wife; and as she by charging it on the serpent; and those excuses they made are the inventions they found out, Ecclesiastes 7:29; or the meaning is, Job did not do "as men" (k) in common do; who, when they have sinned, either through fear or shame, endeavour to conceal it, and keep it out of the sight of others, unless they are very hardened and audacious sinners, such as the men of Sodom were, see Hosea 6:7; [my emphasis ]
I think this comment verifies that "as Adam" is a better rendering:
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
33. Adamtranslated by Umbreit, "as men do" (Ho 6:7, where see Margin). But English Version is more natural. The very same word for "hiding" is used in Ge 3:8, 10, of Adam hiding himself from God. Job elsewhere alludes to the flood. So he might easily know of the fall, through the two links which connect Adam and Abraham (about Job's time), namely, Methuselah and Shem. Adam is representative of fallen man's propensity to concealment (Pr 28:13). It was from God that Job did not "hide his iniquity in his bosom," as on the contrary it was from God that "Adam" hid in his lurking-place. This disproves the translation, "as men"; for it is from their fellow men that "men" are chiefly anxious to hide their real character as guilty. Magee, to make the comparison with Adam more exact, for my "bosom" translates, "lurking-place."
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 788 by ramoss, posted 12-25-2013 11:10 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 792 by ramoss, posted 12-26-2013 9:25 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 790 of 1198 (714689)
12-26-2013 8:18 AM


Jar claims the Jews had no concept of Adam having sinned.
But Hosea 6:7 also indicates the Tanach reading Jews must have understood that Adam was not just embarrassed but transgressed in breaking a divine covenant.
Hosea 6:7
New International Version
As at Adam, they have broken the covenant; they were unfaithful to me there.
New Living Translation
But like Adam, you broke my covenant and betrayed my trust.
English Standard Version
But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me.
New American Standard Bible
But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.
King James Bible
But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But they, like Adam, have violated the covenant; there they have betrayed Me.
International Standard Version
"But like Adam, they broke the covenant; in this they have acted deceitfully against me.
NET Bible
At Adam they broke the covenant; Oh how they were unfaithful to me!
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 791 by jar, posted 12-26-2013 9:03 AM jaywill has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 791 of 1198 (714692)
12-26-2013 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 790 by jaywill
12-26-2013 8:18 AM


jar (note, all lower case) position
jar claims that eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was not a sin and cannot be considered a sin by anyone who honestly reads the story.
jar claims that disobeying God cannot be a sin if the capability of knowing right from wrong is withheld.
Being disobedient can only be a sin once a person has the capability to know right from wrong and the not all that bright God character found in Genesis 2&3 is actually the sinner in that specific case.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 790 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2013 8:18 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 794 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2013 2:41 PM jar has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 792 of 1198 (714694)
12-26-2013 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 789 by jaywill
12-26-2013 7:30 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Wow, when going from 'original sin', you jump to a whole bunch of other prohibitions that have NOTHING To do with original sin at all. You fail to understand the point, and complicate things that are not related to original sin.
It seems to me that you are piling on complications and irrelevancies to complicate the matter without first understanding the simple concepts. Those prohibitions and sins are added complexities.
Genesis can be understood as a process and a thought without later writings. Understand that first.
I will point out that the Jewish religion, whose scripture Christians adopted and misinterpreted, and the religion to which the Torah is owned does not believe in Original Sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 789 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2013 7:30 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 793 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2013 2:07 PM ramoss has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 793 of 1198 (714700)
12-26-2013 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 792 by ramoss
12-26-2013 9:25 AM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Wow, when going from 'original sin', you jump to a whole bunch of other prohibitions that have NOTHING To do with original sin at all. You fail to understand the point, and complicate things that are not related to original sin.
We did move the discussion to a number of other matters. I think usually they were related to the topic of the so-called "Original Sin".
Out of curiosity, I would like you to look at the earlier pages of this discussion. Tell me which post by anyone do think best defined what is meant by "Original Sin."
It is not a term which I am accustomed to using. I have been assuming that something about the first transgression of Adam and Eve and how it caused all their descendents to be constituted sinners with a sin nature.
It seems to me that you are piling on complications and irrelevancies to complicate the matter without first understanding the simple concepts. Those prohibitions and sins are added complexities.
We went into Matthew's gospel because discussion on the topic of "Original Sin" led to some discussion on that Gospel. I do not take sole responsibility to "added complexities." And if you say that these "added complexities" were all my fault, I would assume bias observation on your part.
Look at your recent entrance into the discussion. You called for me having to defend a passage in Job with a number of translations. But then you might turn around latter and accuse me of "added complexities."
If I feel the need to defend something I wrote, I'd rather risk so-called "added complexities" rather than just lay down like a good boy and let someone falsely charge me with an error.
Genesis can be understood as a process and a thought without later writings. Understand that first.
Of course Genesis was read for hundreds of years without benefit of the New Testament. But I am on this side of the New Testament. So I want to benefit from the additional light from the Holy Spirit on Genesis.
I do not expect Solomon or Hosea to have had the revelation on Genesis that Christ or the Apostle Paul had. God's revelation is progressive and unfolded gradually.
I will point out that the Jewish religion, whose scripture Christians adopted and misinterpreted, and the religion to which the Torah is owned does not believe in Original Sin.
Here's an example where you make a charge, that if addressed, you might object to "added complexities." So to avoid "added complexities" I guess I should just say:
"Yes, Yes, Christians adopted and misrepresented Jewish scriptures. Whatever you say Ramoss."
Well, remember. The first disciples of Jesus were Jews. Of course Jesus was a Jew. So possible "added complexity" now involves a realistic evaluation of the thoroughly Jewish background of all of the writers of the New Testament with the exception of Luke.
And Luke wrote in such a style of emulation of Jewish scripture writing that his work is respected among many NT scholars. He certainly knew how to communicate in a "Jewish" style the oracles of God entrusted to him.
I hope your response to this post will tell me where you think in first 20 some pages of this discussion the phrase "Original Sin" was best defined.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 792 by ramoss, posted 12-26-2013 9:25 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 795 by Tangle, posted 12-26-2013 2:55 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 794 of 1198 (714701)
12-26-2013 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 791 by jar
12-26-2013 9:03 AM


Re: jar (note, all lower case) position
jar writes:
jar claims that eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was not a sin and cannot be considered a sin by anyone who honestly reads the story.
Do you think God considered it a sin ?
quote:
"And to Adam He [God] said, Because you listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree concerning which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it; Cursed is the ground because of you ..." (Genesis 3:17)
I don't see anyway out of recognizing that Adam sinned.
I am not going to adopt an attitude that it doesn't matter what God thought.
And I am not going to adopt an assumption that for God to give a specific command which a creature then deliberately breaks, it is not to be deemed a sin.
jar writes:
jar claims that disobeying God cannot be a sin if the capability of knowing right from wrong is withheld.
It is an interesting take. However, if God commanded the man directly, God the Designer and Creator of humanity must have required that Adam do the right thing as opposed to ignore the commandment.
Adam knew enough from the direct command of God that to disobey the command was to spurn the authority of God.
jar writes:
Being disobedient can only be a sin once a person has the capability to know right from wrong and the not all that bright God character found in Genesis 2&3 is actually the sinner in that specific case.
Adam knew that it was right to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He knew enough that that one line should not be crossed.
If he did not then God would be wrong to charge Adam with the transgression of disobedience.
quote:
"And He said, Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" (v.11)
There is a sin against God's holiness.
And there is a sin against God's authority.
I think that the latter is the more serious sin.
I could be wrong.
But Satan had sinned both against God's holiness (Ezek. 28) and against God's authority (Isaiah 14).
And the serpent [virtually Satan incarnated] brought man into Satan's own sin against the authority of God.
If God had not considered it a sin then verse 11 would not be there.
If God thought no sin was committed verse 17 would also not be there.
Adam knew that it was wrong or he would not have sought to deflect blame to his wife (v.12). And the woman knew that it was wrong or she would not have tried to excuse herself because of the deceiving serpent (v.13).
The serpent, of course, didn't have a leg to stand on. No excuse is offered by Satan because all Satan can do is sin against God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 791 by jar, posted 12-26-2013 9:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 796 by jar, posted 12-26-2013 3:16 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 795 of 1198 (714702)
12-26-2013 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 793 by jaywill
12-26-2013 2:07 PM


Re: after the Great Rising and Blessing in Gen 2&3
Jaywill writes:
I have been assuming that something about the first transgression of Adam and Eve and how it caused all their descendents to be constituted sinners with a sin nature.
Which, according to you, is not a group punishment for the sin of the father. Have you changed your mind?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 793 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2013 2:07 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 797 by jaywill, posted 12-26-2013 4:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
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