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Author Topic:   and these people vote?
dronestar
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Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(2)
Message 8 of 86 (715839)
01-09-2014 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
01-08-2014 6:39 PM


Hey RAZD,
I don't doubt they are real and honest comments.
While traveling in Peru's Amazon rain forest, my friend, two acquaintances, and I stayed in open huts. After the first day of sightseeing, the two acquaintances decided to stay behind because they never imagined a tropical rain forest would be so uncomfortably hot and humid. [insert facepalm here]
There is a difference between a tourist and a traveler.
The traveler wants to experience the life of others, to literally walk in their shoes.
A tourist just wants to see the big sights in comfort and buy a few trinkets in the style they are accustomed to at home.
But take heed, maybe you shouldn't mock these tourists too much. At least they got off their duffs and tried to do something. MAYBE something penetrated into their minds during their travels that could have possibly enriched their lives. An epiphany in dormancy just waiting to blossom later in life?
But do scorn the person who never traveled or even owns a passport. Someone who shows a complete lack of intellectual inquisitiveness or natural curiosity of life outside their bubble. Someone who can show no sympathy or empathy toward their fellow man. I cannot imagine a less worthwhile politician to vote for with these desolate qualities. And yet, an immoral simpleton like Bush Jr, a man who had never traveled to Europe was elected* twice by a public who felt he was the type of guy they would most like to drink a beer with:
Edited by dronester, : update photo
Edited by dronester, : replaced ANOTHER Bush Jr. photo that had mysteriously disappeared.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 01-08-2014 6:39 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 01-09-2014 1:43 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 21 by caffeine, posted 01-10-2014 3:45 AM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 10 of 86 (715849)
01-09-2014 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
01-09-2014 1:43 PM


I wish I could remember more . . . here's one for the evolution crowd . . .
When in Borneo visiting the Sepilok Orangutan Rehabilitation Centre, a group of orangs descended from the forest to a platform to eat food set out by caretakers. After a while, a young woman asked "when do the gorillas show up?" When told that gorillas lived in Africa, she snorted, "wouldn't it be more convenient if they lived here?"
Well, maybe you had to be there (but I thought it was so funny that I almost squished my durian).

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 12 of 86 (715852)
01-09-2014 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
01-09-2014 1:43 PM


RAZD writes:
American woman: that's the Mona Lisa? I've seen reproductions that are better than that!
Besides the Mona Lisa (it IS quite small, dark and underwhelming to non-art patrons), Botticelli's The Birth of Venus is actually very faded looking, and not at all the whimsically colourful painting one often sees in commercial advertisements.
(I wonder if "art or locations as viewed/experienced in-person that are disappointing" would be an interesting thread?)

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 13 of 86 (715855)
01-09-2014 3:43 PM


or how about . . .
Razd, would you mind terribly if I enlarge your thread with the question to forum participants: "What art would you like to see in person one day?"
On my list would be two pieces by Emmanuel Frmiet:
1. Gorille enlevant une Femme
2. Orangutan Strangling Borneo Hunter
(No, I don't think I have any mental issues that need to be addressed. Why do you ask?)

Replies to this message:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 16 of 86 (715863)
01-09-2014 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
01-09-2014 4:13 PM


Re: or how about . . .
RAZD writes:
Is that on the Rue Morgue?
Hmmm, actually an interesting musing. Frmiet sculpted "Gorille enlevant une femme" around 1887, after Poe's short story was publihsed in 1841, just across the channel. I wonder if Frmiet ever read Poe's story and became inspired.
And from this ape icon influenced yet another, . . . I wonder if Merian Cooper, the man who created the story of King Kong in 1933, ever saw Frmiet's sculpture and it inspired him in kind.
Ape's weren't very well represented in them there unenlightened days, were they?

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 22 of 86 (715931)
01-10-2014 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by caffeine
01-10-2014 3:45 AM


Caf writes:
A 'traveller' is someone who does the same thing whilst pontificating about how much more significant and meaningful their experience is than typical tourists.
So, to use photos in your example, you think these 'tourists:'
are having the exact same significant and meaningful experience as these 'travelers':
Okay, whatever you say Pops.
(BTW, I still want to make clear, even seniors who go on climate- and culture- controlled bus tours are still doing a HELLAVA lot more than the person who just sits home and watches television.)
Edited by dronester, : added parantheseis remark

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 24 of 86 (715961)
01-10-2014 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
01-10-2014 10:54 AM


RingO writes:
everybody sets their own standards for meaning.
Yes, they sure try to. And look where that leads us . . .
If true, then this experience/meaning:
CAN BE equal to this experience/meaning:
and then that can be equal to this experience/meaning:
and then that can be equal to this experience/meaning:
and then that can be equal to this experience/meaning:
So, if you really want to argue that the experiences of a comatose person CAN be just as rewarding as a person who climbed Everest, be my guest.
(Ringo, didn't you also debate with me that Hitler's philosophy was also a possible legitimate way of life?)
(Would love to see the reference to a bus ride up to the TOP of EVEREST, link please)

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 Message 23 by ringo, posted 01-10-2014 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ringo, posted 01-10-2014 12:25 PM dronestar has replied
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 26 of 86 (715968)
01-10-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ringo
01-10-2014 12:25 PM


Drone writes:
(Ringo, didn't you also debate with me that Hitler's philosophy was also a possible legitimate way of life?)
RingO writes:
I don't recall but I probably could argue that position, yes.
That's kinda what you're doing here. Dear 'ol Crashfrog would often play the frustrating equal/not-equal relativist card with me too.
Drone writes:
So, if you really want to argue that the experiences of a comatose person CAN be just as rewarding as a person who climbed Everest, be my guest.
RingO writes:
I didn't say that every experience is equally rewarding.
That sounds like the beeping of a truck backing up.
RingO writes:
I said that different experiences can also be rewarding.
So to confirm, you do not agree with Caffiene that tourist and travelers have equal rewarding experiences, okay, check.
I am talking about the rule and the exception . . .
Yes, I think I can imagine it POSSIBLE that a tourist riding on a bus, against miraculous odds (perhaps only in Einsteinian theory), CAN have an 'equal' experience to a person summitting Mount Everest. And as you slide the activities/experiences down to that of a comatose person, the odds continue to plummet to NEVER having a similar comparable experience as a person who climbed Everest.
Thusly, this truism remains: a 'traveler' will almost always have a deeper experience than a 'tourist', who will almost always have a deeper experience than a television-watcher, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a child playing jacks, who will . . .
(Would love to see the reference to a bus ride up to the TOP of EVEREST, link please)
Edited by dronester, : caffeine confirmation

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Replies to this message:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 30 of 86 (716219)
01-13-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
01-11-2014 10:54 AM


(Third time, . . .would love to see the reference to a bus ride up to the TOP of EVEREST, link please)
RingO writes:
I clarified by saying that not all experiences are necessarily equally rewarding.
So to confirm, you do not agree with Caffiene that tourist and travelers ALL have equal rewarding experiences, okay, check.
RingO writes:
You might as well say that somebody watching the History Channel will almost always have a more rewarding experience than somebody watching a football game. Have you ever heard of subjectivity?
You are presenting apples and orangutans. I'll try again, this time I'll be more specific, . . .
. . . a 'traveler' will almost always have a deeper experience climbing Everest than a 'tourist' who will bus to the BOTTOM of Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a television-watcher who is watching a travel program about Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a child playing with Everest-shaped-jacks, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a comatose person who may or may not have fleeting active brains waves of Everest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 01-11-2014 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Modulous, posted 01-13-2014 1:37 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 01-14-2014 11:07 AM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 32 of 86 (716235)
01-13-2014 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Modulous
01-13-2014 1:37 PM


hey Mod, nice to see you posting again.
Mod writes:
Caffeine made a humorous remark that people that call themselves travellers are, to paraphrase, pretentious.
That was humorous? Sounded more like sour grapes to me. A bitter utterance from a person sandwiched in between two other tourists, one with a garlic bologna sandwich, the other with a perspiration dysfunction, in the back of a tourist bus with the window stuck down near the hot asphyxiating exhaust, I wager. Yeaaah, I guess the 'humor' was lost on me, because of the more obviously wrong part that stood out . . .
caffeine writes:
A 'traveller' is someone who does the same thing whilst pontificating about how much more significant and meaningful their experience is than typical tourists.
caffeine writes:
A 'traveller' is someone who does the same thing . . .
"Does the SAME THING."
This is the part that I have been trying to highlight. A TYPICAL tourist might take a bus ride to the base of Everest. Where a Everest climber would need to get training for several months with technical gear and trainer, do specific exercise, pay tens of thousands of dollars in fees and insurance, make out a last will, blah, blah, blah. And then, if lucky, would have his goal realized by standing on top of the world. It specifically seems Caffiene believes a 'tourist' would have the EXACT same preparation and experience as ascending to the top of Everest.
Well, no, the two experiences are not the 'same thing,' isn't the right Mod? Or would you argue this specific point?
Mod writes:
I go camping with a 100 or so friends and family and we play music, sing songs and dance through the night. Is this deeper experience than my honeymoon where we toured central Europe? Is it a deeper experience than my wife's time working in India?
You are counterarguing like Ringo, comparing apples and orangutans. Try this specific example:
. . . a 'traveler' will almost always have a deeper experience climbing Everest than a 'tourist' who will bus to the BOTTOM of Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a television-watcher who is watching a travel program about Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a child playing with Everest-shaped-jacks, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a comatose person who may or may not have fleeting active brains waves of Everest.
Of the five people I described, which one will ordinarily have the deepest experience (however you want to qualify it)? Yes, I already conceded rare exceptions, so please, what is the rule and what is the exception?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Modulous, posted 01-13-2014 1:37 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 01-13-2014 4:13 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 34 by caffeine, posted 01-14-2014 6:55 AM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 36 of 86 (716279)
01-14-2014 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Modulous
01-13-2014 4:13 PM


Mod writes:
I'm returning to university to study soon, so I might not be posting regular again.
Okay, try to be a special guest poster when your time permits.
Mod writes:
I thought it might amuse you that I applied for a job at the BBC recently. I didn't get it.
Sorry, at any rate, that would be the BBC's loss.
Mod writes:
I didn't say it was funny
Oh well, try Ringo's posts, apparently, they are chucked full of jocularity, . . . (says him).
Mod writes:
what is the 'thing' that caffeine was referring to? They might go in a different way and do different things when they get there, but they both go and see a place different from where they live for recreation.
The difference between visiting the base of Everest and the summit of Everest is as different as lightning and a lightning bug.
Mod writes:
I'm sure 'travellers' (not people that live in caravans etc) tend to have more interesting (to me) stories to tell, is that how we're measuring it?
Why do you think that is probably true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Modulous, posted 01-13-2014 4:13 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Modulous, posted 01-14-2014 11:42 AM dronestar has replied
 Message 45 by RAZD, posted 01-14-2014 2:05 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 37 of 86 (716280)
01-14-2014 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by caffeine
01-14-2014 6:55 AM


caffeine writes:
Well, it amused me briefly. You've managed to take the humour out back into a dark alley and beat it to within an inch of its life though. Thanks for that.
I also make a terrific 4-alarm chili.

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 38 of 86 (716281)
01-14-2014 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
01-14-2014 11:07 AM


RingO writes:
Have you ever heard of the concept of humour?
Well, my idea of humour is a juxtaposition of ideas told with impeccable timing. But I admit, that may not be for everyone.
RingO writes:
I think it's pretty obvious that you can't measure the quality of people's experiences accurately enough to compare them.
"accurately enough"???
Okay, so, if you really want to argue that the GENERAL experiences of a comatose person CAN be just as rewarding as a person who climbed Everest, be my guest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by ringo, posted 01-14-2014 11:07 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 01-14-2014 11:49 AM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 41 of 86 (716284)
01-14-2014 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
01-14-2014 11:49 AM


RingO writes:
So you have no response at all to the point that you can't measure "rewarding"?
Err, Ringo, . . . is this humour too?
. . . because you are contradicting yourself. From this:
RingO writes:
I think it's pretty obvious that you can't measure the quality of people's experiences accurately enough to compare them.
To this: In message Message 25, you actually go and compare the quality of experiences:
RingO writes:
Just meeting the other people on the bus might be more meaningful for many people than seeing yet another mountain up close.
So, IF YOU can compare the experiences or rewards of a traveler and a tourist, THEN is stands that YOU might also compare the experiences of a traveler and comatose patient.
I am still confident my argument stands:
. . . a 'traveler' will almost always have a deeper experience climbing Everest than a 'tourist' who will bus to the BOTTOM of Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a television-watcher who is watching a travel program about Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a child playing with Everest-shaped-jacks, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a comatose person who may or may not have fleeting active brains waves of Everest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 01-14-2014 11:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 01-14-2014 12:19 PM dronestar has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 43 of 86 (716287)
01-14-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Modulous
01-14-2014 11:42 AM


Mod writes:
However they share some commonalities.
Yes, I agree. Like there ARE also commonalities (though diminishing) in my example:
. . . a 'traveler' will almost always have a deeper experience climbing Everest than a 'tourist' who will bus to the BOTTOM of Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a television-watcher who is watching a travel program about Everest, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a child playing with Everest-shaped-jacks, who will almost always have a deeper experience than a comatose person who may or may not have fleeting active brains waves of Everest.
Mod writes:
. . . nor the depth of the experience were equalized by his words.
Hmm, I think there is more than just an implied 'depth of experience' in his words:
caffeine writes:
A 'traveller' is someone who does the same thing whilst pontificating about how much more significant and meaningful their experience is than typical tourists.
Mod writes:
I have to say, your reaction to his words kind of work as verification of the truth behind the jest....
Yeah, I know. In taking this debate, I have chosen to look like a pompass ass. (seems like the decent thing to do would not draw public attention to this off-topic aside Mod!!!)
Mod writes:
I'll give a singular answer to a complex question: Novelty.
Well, I suppose that would be one reason that Caffeine's humorous quip is wrong.
Edited by dronester, : (seems like the decent thing to do would not draw public attention to this off-topic aside Mod!!!)

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