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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 272 of 675 (715867)
01-09-2014 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by jar
01-09-2014 9:50 AM


Re: how does a good parent help?
Has she had to bail you out before?
Have you stopped gambling?
Have you lost more than the dental bill cost by gambling?
Did she really help you?
Lets just say im doing better. She helps me just by being alive.
As does Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by jar, posted 01-09-2014 9:50 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 273 of 675 (715957)
01-10-2014 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Phat
01-09-2014 9:37 AM


Re: how does a good parent help?
Phat writes:
One mans blessing is another mans enabler.
And conversely, one man's enabler is another man's blessing. Your spare change might enable that homeless guy to get high or it might enable him to get to a job interview. Are you his parent to decide for him or are you his brother to let him take responsibility?
Does God pay your dental bills for you?

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 274 of 675 (716101)
01-12-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
07-02-2007 1:02 PM


Does God know what we will decide?
If GOD is the creator, GOD creates everyone.
If GOD then chooses only some of those She creates and condemns the others, then GOD creates only to punish.
If GOD foreknows the results and still goes on to create folk, then GOD creates only to punish.
Based on your logic, God does not foreknow what we will decide to do. I might believe this...either God cannot know (which is how we were given free will) and/or God judges based on what WE do (as you have mentioned before)
Others would say that God overlooks our weaknesses based on what Jesus did. You say that this is marketed by humans and is not what actually happened...right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 07-02-2007 1:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 01-12-2014 1:13 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 275 of 675 (716103)
01-12-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Phat
01-12-2014 1:06 PM


Re: Does God know what we will decide?
Based on your logic, God does not foreknow what we will decide to do. I might believe this...either God cannot know (which is how we were given free will) and/or God judges based on what WE do (as you have mentioned before)
Or God could be just plain evil, like the God in the Calvinist tradition.
Others would say that God overlooks our weaknesses based on what Jesus did. You say that this is marketed by humans and is not what actually happened...right?
I have no idea what actually happened or even think that is very important to know what actually happened.
What I say is if "God overlooks our weaknesses based on what Jesus did" has no real meaning and just makes that God look stupid.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by Phat, posted 01-12-2014 1:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Phat, posted 01-12-2014 1:22 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 276 of 675 (716105)
01-12-2014 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by jar
01-12-2014 1:13 PM


Re: Does God know what we will decide?
jar writes:
What I say is if "God overlooks our weaknesses based on what Jesus did" has no real meaning and just makes that God look stupid.
I suppose it couldn't hurt for everyone to try and do their best,admit when they are wrong and adjust their behavior...but it certainly doesn't make us irresponsible to believe that Jesus took away our sentence. We still owe it to everyone to try and do our best.
critics would argue that we need to realize that our best is never good enough....hence why Jesus covered the spread. You might argue that people tend to slack off and absolve themselves of responsibility so long as they think that Jesus has it covered...right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by jar, posted 01-12-2014 1:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by jar, posted 01-12-2014 1:29 PM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 277 of 675 (716107)
01-12-2014 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Phat
01-12-2014 1:22 PM


Re: Does God know what we will decide?
If you are talking about some life after death then that has nothing to do with Jesus message.
Believe anything you want about that, it has nothing to do with reality and even if there is an afterlife what you believe has nothing to do with what will happen.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 276 by Phat, posted 01-12-2014 1:22 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 278 of 675 (716110)
01-12-2014 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
01-08-2014 10:09 AM


Re: Is It A Cop Out To Believe In Communion?
Jesus was a Jew, not a Christian. Jesus saw the world through Jewish eyes.
Some say He also saw the world through wisdom that He got from Dad. He may have been only human, but I think He as more....and is more. Of course you argue that my beliefs have nothing to do with changing reality...so I suppose that you have framed the issue as reality based....not belief based.
I also figure that if communion were true, we still have to do our part....the issue is what our part is. Grace critics would say that trust and belief are as important as doing.
I see no reason why both cannot be adopted.
The only logic i can see in your argument is that its human nature to not try as hard when you are trusting anyone or anything besides yourself. But is this in fact the way reality is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 01-08-2014 10:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by jar, posted 01-12-2014 1:49 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 279 of 675 (716111)
01-12-2014 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Phat
01-12-2014 1:44 PM


Re: Is It A Cop Out To Believe In Communion?
Can the naked wear trust and belief?
Can the hungry eat trust and belief?
Will trust and belief comfort the sorrowful or educate the ignorant?
Will trust and belief heal the sick?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 01-12-2014 1:44 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 01-12-2014 2:06 PM jar has replied
 Message 284 by Phat, posted 01-12-2014 10:24 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 280 of 675 (716112)
01-12-2014 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by jar
01-12-2014 1:49 PM


Re: Is It A Cop Out To Believe In Communion?
whats the difference then between being a good christian and a good humanist?
heck, everyone ought do those things....the more that pitch in the cheaper it is for individuals. There is no reason why christians should have to spend every spare dime on clothing and feeding people...everyone ought do it....kinda like the theory behind the national health care...it costs so much because not everyone is in on it

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by jar, posted 01-12-2014 1:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 01-12-2014 4:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 281 of 675 (716126)
01-12-2014 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Phat
01-12-2014 2:06 PM


Re: Is It A Cop Out To Believe In Communion?
To be a good Christian you must first and last be a good humanist.
But honesty might also help.
Stop misrepresenting what I say.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Phat, posted 01-12-2014 2:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Dogmafood, posted 01-12-2014 9:35 PM jar has replied

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 282 of 675 (716157)
01-12-2014 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by jar
01-12-2014 4:49 PM


Re: Is It A Cop Out To Believe In Communion?
To be a good Christian you must first and last be a good humanist.
What definition of humanist are you using?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by jar, posted 01-12-2014 4:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 01-12-2014 10:09 PM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 285 by jar, posted 01-12-2014 10:27 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 283 of 675 (716160)
01-12-2014 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Dogmafood
01-12-2014 9:35 PM


Re: Is It A Cop Out To Believe In Communion?
jar is calling me out on trying to sidestep the definition of what it means to be a Christian. He would argue that the primary job is to clothe the naked, feed the hungry,heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, and educate the ignorant. He would assert that Jesus message was to do this, in fact, and that the distorted message of the C.C.O.I. (Christian culture of ignorance) is that we need only trust and believe.
Thus he called me out on attempting to misdirect what he was saying by bringing humanism in to the discussion.
Edited by Phat, : invited prototypical to participate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Dogmafood, posted 01-12-2014 9:35 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 284 of 675 (716164)
01-12-2014 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by jar
01-12-2014 1:49 PM


What Is The Calvinist God?
There are two parts to communion.
1) Communion between God and us. (trust and belief)
2) Communion between us as Christians and the rest of humanity.
In which your example holds true. We are charged to love our neighbors as ourselves. My point is that the Christians shouldn't have to foot the entire bill. Perhaps your idea of raising taxes is sound. Even Coyote would have to admit that everyone should share in the expense of fixing global warming, for example.
Many wealthier Christians, however, would argue that they too don't want the (major part of the)bill for healing the sick. They prefer private free enterprise--as do many of the opponents of global warming (as a government controlled operation) But im getting off track here....
What is the Calvinist God? Seems to me that that God is the one that most Christians here in the U.S. of A believe in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by jar, posted 01-12-2014 1:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 01-12-2014 10:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 285 of 675 (716165)
01-12-2014 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 282 by Dogmafood
01-12-2014 9:35 PM


Re: Is It A Cop Out To Believe In Communion?
And the second is like unto it; thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by Dogmafood, posted 01-12-2014 9:35 PM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 286 of 675 (716166)
01-12-2014 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Phat
01-12-2014 10:24 PM


Re: What Is The Calvinist God?
There are two parts to communion.
1) Communion between God and us. (trust and belief)
2) Communion between us as Christians and the rest of humanity.
In which your example holds true. We are charged to love our neighbors as ourselves. My point is that the Christians shouldn't have to foot the entire bill. Perhaps your idea of raising taxes is sound. Even Coyote would have to admit that everyone should share in the expense of fixing global warming, for example.
Many wealthier Christians, however, would argue that they too don't want the (major part of the)bill for healing the sick. They prefer private free enterprise--as do many of the opponents of global warming (as a government controlled operation) But im getting off track here....
Well, I don't see what any of that has to do with either communion or Calvin.
And you can look up Calvin and his theology.
Yes, you may be right and Calvin is certainly making inroads into US Christianity.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Phat, posted 01-12-2014 10:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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