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Author Topic:   Creationist inconsistency when inferring relatedness
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 47 of 78 (716476)
01-17-2014 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by AndrewPD
01-17-2014 12:35 PM


Explanations of evolution are ideologically and conceptually loaded. A trip to the moon is not.
Was this intentional humour?
The race to the moon was an ideologically driven race to stick it to the capitalists/communists.
And just because science can do something such as create a nuclear weapon doesn't mean it should unless you don't want science to abide by an ethical standards.
Engineers build nuclear weapons, with the assistance of scientists under the funding of government. Is there some knowledge you believe it should be forbidden for humans to acquire through a process of empirical reasoning?
In what way is 'variations more suited to increased replication, will replicate with higher frequencies than those that are not' loaded, and if it is why is that a problem?
Should we have silenced Darwin and Wallace? Is learning how to detect the relatedness of life somehow unethical?
People especially in evolutionary psychology feel entitled to make certain dubious claims "Evolution is true therefore"
There are plenty of fields that are people with those that feel entitled to make dubious claims. 'Creation is true therefore' for a simple counter-example. But I'm sure electricians have plenty of folk making dubious claims and feeling entitled to do so.
I would not surprised that similar body parts require similar DNA arrangements to cause them.
Well it turns out this is not true. For instance placental mice look very similar to marsupial mice - but their genetics are more different from one another than Humans and Blue Whales.
The Jack The Ripper cases shows how vital evidence can be destroyed or inaccessible leaving us not knowing who the serial killer was which leaves the case a mystery. The surrounding evidence is not sufficient to gloss over this crucial absence.
Indeed. But this would only be relevant if biologists were claiming complete knowledge of natural history and relatedness. But you know they are not.
Does the fact that some murders are unsolved lead to the conclusion that forensic science is useless for detecting murders? No? Then the tools of biology can learn some things about natural history, ancestry and relatedness even if in some cases the evidence is lacking or difficult to acquire.
If you posit evolution you have to mould a theory onto the evidence that you otherwise wouldn't.
Of course you mould a theory to the evidence. What other system would make even the remotest sense? Postulating theories disconnected from the evidence? Sounds positively religious to me.
There are varying degrees of falsifiability and plausibility of claims but some claims are giving plausibility by dint of association with the paradigm (see evolutionary psychology)
Ask around - you'll find EP is much maligned because of the just-so stories that plague the field. It isn't all bunk, but there are psychologists that simply don't understand evolution well enough to make the claims they do. The solution is better understanding of evolution.
Are these issues presented to the lay person? I would prefer not to have to do a degree in every subject to get a decent sample of the issues involved.
I don't have a degree in evolutionary biology. They are presented to any lay person interested in finding out. Books are pretty good for that kind of thing.
So a close genetic pattern in families benefits from lots of shared features. Wider genetic similarities are seriously diluted of relevance so that we begin to have similar sequences to a Banana.
Cyctochrome c is common to all (or maybe almost all) life on earth. So yes, of curse we have similar sequences to Banana - we are both multicellular life.
You wouldn't convict a killer based on the DNA being that of a male or being that of and African male. The DNA has to be actually their DNA to make a claim with that kind or level of ramification.
People have been caught because their relatives DNA was collected during investigation. People have been convicted of deliberately spreading virii (such as HIV) based on the relatedness of the carried genomes.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by AndrewPD, posted 01-17-2014 12:35 PM AndrewPD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by AndrewPD, posted 01-22-2014 8:44 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 58 of 78 (717006)
01-23-2014 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by AndrewPD
01-22-2014 8:44 PM


"Driven"means something different to "loaded". We couldn't get to the moon solely on capitalist or communist ideology. It didn't effect the validity of the science and technology.
And you can't get to evolution solely on any atheist ideology. Otherwise we'd have come up with it thousands of years before Darwin.
The evidence in evolution is interpreted it is an interpretation of evidence among other things it seems to have the bias of attempting to explain biology without reference to a creator.
You're wrong. It just tries to explain biology. It turns out that postulating a creator is not necessary and that anyone that insists that a creator is necessary is biased (as evidenced by the fact they can't show that it is necessary).
Science is like that - it ignores unnecessary explanatory entities, even if the human bias is to believe they are there. This is a universal trait of science - which is why there is no creator in the study of disease, cosmology, mechanics, ore smelting, oil distillation, anthropology, or indeed anywhere in any science.
Why is it that the overwhelming majority, almost to the point of it being a universal, of people that object to evolution are religious, especially where their religion says something different than observation? Might there be a bias there?
It requires for homology to be over-interpreted to make strong enough links to imply ancestry.
This is not true. I suggest you don't say this in front of people who know its not true or they will suspect you are a liar. I know its false because you failed to show the requirement for over-interpretation in order to infer ancestry, whereas the counter position is documented in thousands of papers. I have been studying and discussing this subject informally for about 10 years, so on that basis also I know its not true. I won't be persuaded otherwise by yet another evidence-free assertion.
For instance we didn't see the brain evolve from scratch so how can any theory of its evolution be anything but highly speculative?
I suppose 'The twin towers were destroyed by radical Islamists' is highly speculative as we didn't see the plan evolve from scratch. I suppose the existence of a creator is even more highly speculative?
Why do you think we have to see something evolve from scratch in order to conclude that it evolved? Do you apply this standard universally? Do you campaign for convicted murderers to go free because we didn't see the murder evolve (develop over time) from scratch?
I think you are just making objections up on an ad hoc basis, which is exactly what someone who is influenced by their own biases would be doing. You are in the unenviable position of trying to convince me you are in a better position to judge a field than the practitioners of that field.
[The conversation seems to be veering a bit into discussions of the moral responsibility of science, which is interesting but not relevant. ]
Then why did you ignore the part of my post about inferring relatedness? Such as when I falsified your idea 'that similar body parts require similar DNA arrangements to cause them'
It is useful to gauge what the value and impact of a claim has and whether people are making safe inferences from them. It is putting things in context
We know that life evolved. It is a fact. We don't have to have observed every evolutionary event to make this inference. I could prove that my parents are my parents, without having observed them having sex, observed the sperm fuse with the egg etc etc.
You have failed to identify anywhere where this so-called bias you accuse others of having comes into play.
Try this: If we share recent common ancestry with chimpanzees - what would be the observable consequences of this fact? Let me help: Our genomes would be more similar to one another than species that share more distant common ancestry. Our anatomy would be more similar to one another that other more distantly related species. Agreed?
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by AndrewPD, posted 01-22-2014 8:44 PM AndrewPD has not replied

  
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