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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2236 of 5179 (716674)
01-20-2014 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 2232 by Faith
01-19-2014 8:37 PM


Re: hateful abuse.
What does creationism have to do with gun control? Does creationism define and control everything in your life and every opinion you have?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2232 by Faith, posted 01-19-2014 8:37 PM Faith has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 2237 of 5179 (716680)
01-20-2014 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2232 by Faith
01-19-2014 8:37 PM


Re: hateful abuse.
No such thing as EVER understanding the position of a creationist on this ugly excuse for a forum.
Ah that's right, that's why I don't bother to spend the time trying to discuss things with you: You don't bother to reciprocate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2232 by Faith, posted 01-19-2014 8:37 PM Faith has not replied

1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(2)
Message 2238 of 5179 (716686)
01-20-2014 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2218 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2014 3:01 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
If a person decides they want to get a firearm and kill folks there is very little anyone can do to stop them.
There are so many firearms available today even if fully banned folks would still find a means to obtain them.
The genie has been let out of the bottle, pandora has opened the box. The guns are here and here to stay.
I am beginning to think we have this gun problem because it has become part of the American culture.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2218 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2014 3:01 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 2239 of 5179 (716695)
01-20-2014 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 2232 by Faith
01-19-2014 8:37 PM


We love you, Faith
Faith writes:
No such thing as EVER understanding the position of a creationist on this ugly excuse for a forum.
It isn't that we don't understand the positions you take. It's more like we don't understand why anybody would take such idiotic positions - or where they get the chutzpah to "argue" them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2232 by Faith, posted 01-19-2014 8:37 PM Faith has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 2240 of 5179 (716701)
01-20-2014 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2220 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2014 3:44 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
Legislation is of little practical worth if it isn't enfoced.
That's what I meant by 'theoretically banned'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2220 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2014 3:44 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2244 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-20-2014 4:08 PM Straggler has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 2241 of 5179 (716705)
01-20-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 2218 by New Cat's Eye
01-17-2014 3:01 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
Is that all? According to this site, there have already been 34 shootings in Chicago alone this year in January 2014... you know, where guns were practically banned.
The continued go-to comparison of the gun nuts. Chicago!
You can ban all guns in violent, inner cities, where the ENTIRE system has failed the public, and of course there will still be violence.
There are plenty of places where strict gun laws have helped, along with better police presense and stronger community support, that has dramatically reduced gun violence.
I've presented NY in this thread before as one of those cities, that stepped up their police force and banned guns/added strict gun laws. Where gun violence has drastically reduced.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2218 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-17-2014 3:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2242 by Theodoric, posted 01-20-2014 2:53 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 2243 by ramoss, posted 01-20-2014 3:25 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 2245 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-20-2014 4:13 PM onifre has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2242 of 5179 (716709)
01-20-2014 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2241 by onifre
01-20-2014 1:32 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
NY doesn't count, cuz, well just cuz.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2241 by onifre, posted 01-20-2014 1:32 PM onifre has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 2243 of 5179 (716715)
01-20-2014 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 2241 by onifre
01-20-2014 1:32 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
One thing that is not mentioned is that the last couple of years, the homicide rate in Chicago has been going down drastically. Yes, a lot of gun violence so far this month.. but when you compare it with other cities the same size, it isn't THAT much higher.
Let's see, in Chicago, there were 441 killed by gun violence in 2012
IN 2013, it was down to 371.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2241 by onifre, posted 01-20-2014 1:32 PM onifre has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 2244 of 5179 (716720)
01-20-2014 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2240 by Straggler
01-20-2014 1:04 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
Legislation is of little practical worth if it isn't enfoced.
Yeah, and it is worthless if it is practically unenforceable.
That's what I meant by 'theoretically banned'.
Well, "banned" only means prohibited, rather than made vanished.
Chicago's law was a complete failure. Not only did it fail to achieve the results they wanted, it was also ruled as unconstitutional.
Given there's another ~80% of the state of Illinois, which has a small fraction of the crime1, that has to be bothered by their impeding legislation2, and that the large amounts of money it costs could have been better spent, Chicago's law ended up at a negative worth in my opinion.
1. From Message 1303,
quote:
lets consider the state I live in: Illinois. We have about 3 million people living in our biggest city: Chicago. There's about 10 million of us in the rest of the state. In Chicago, there were 436 homicides in 2010 among 3 million people. That leaves 268 homides among the other 10 million of us. So for kills per million (kpm), the entire state is at 54 kpm. But Chicago is at 145 kpm while the rest of the state is only at 27 kpm.
2. Not only did they fail to keep up with renewing people's cards on time, but they spent waay too much money doing a bad job (half a million dollars to the cops for overtime in 2 years). See the Auditor General's report from 2012

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2240 by Straggler, posted 01-20-2014 1:04 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2247 by Straggler, posted 01-21-2014 3:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 2245 of 5179 (716721)
01-20-2014 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2241 by onifre
01-20-2014 1:32 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
The continued go-to comparison of the gun nuts. Chicago!
I live in Illinois, this is what affects me.
You can ban all guns in violent, inner cities, where the ENTIRE system has failed the public, and of course there will still be violence.
Illinois wasted millions of dollars making the other 80% of the state also use these stupid plastic FOID cards (that didn't help the problem), because Chicago has such a problem. There are way better ways to reduce violence in Chicago than making the state police ensure that southern Illinois deer hunters have a little plastic card.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2241 by onifre, posted 01-20-2014 1:32 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2246 by Coyote, posted 01-20-2014 4:20 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 2246 of 5179 (716722)
01-20-2014 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2245 by New Cat's Eye
01-20-2014 4:13 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
Its the government.
It doesn't have to make sense.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2245 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-20-2014 4:13 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 2247 of 5179 (716813)
01-21-2014 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 2244 by New Cat's Eye
01-20-2014 4:08 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
CS writes:
Yeah, and it is worthless if it is practically unenforceable.
Why is Chicago specifically such a lots cause where NY and other places have succeeded? Implementation specifics rather than innately "unenforable" would seem to be the issue.
CS writes:
Well, "banned" only means prohibited, rather than made vanished.
There is prohibited in theory and prohibited in practise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2244 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-20-2014 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2248 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 4:41 PM Straggler has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 2248 of 5179 (716821)
01-21-2014 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2247 by Straggler
01-21-2014 3:53 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
Why is Chicago specifically such a lots cause where NY and other places have succeeded?
Because Chicago's legislation sucked and they're a bunch of crooks up there anyways. Have you seen how many of our governors went to prison?
Implementation specifics rather than innately "unenforable" would seem to be the issue.
Well, how do you enforce their gun-ban, short of searching every individual that leaves their house?
There is prohibited in theory and prohibited in practise.
What's the difference? Neither magically make the prohibited item vanish.
And, in this case specifically, how do you go from prohibiting the possession of guns outside of the home in theory, to prohibiting the possession of guns outside of the home in practice?
Exactly how is that enforced?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2247 by Straggler, posted 01-21-2014 3:53 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2249 by Straggler, posted 01-21-2014 5:17 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 2249 of 5179 (716831)
01-21-2014 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 2248 by New Cat's Eye
01-21-2014 4:41 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
You seem to be suggesting that it's the practical implementation of prohibiting outside the home but not inside the home that makes Chicago's particular attempt at prohibiting guns unworkable.
Perhaps an approach that is more along the lines of NY would be more feasible....? How do they do it there?
Straggler writes:
There is prohibited in theory and prohibited in practise.
CS writes:
What's the difference?
It's the difference betwen Percy saying "CS, as Admin I prohibit you from posting at EvC" whilst turning a blind eye to your continued posting as a variety of different user names and Percy saying "CS, as Admin I prohibit you from posting at EvC" whilst actively stopping any new user accounts you create from posting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2248 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 4:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2250 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-21-2014 5:37 PM Straggler has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 2250 of 5179 (716836)
01-21-2014 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2249 by Straggler
01-21-2014 5:17 PM


Re: And yet more shootings......
You seem to be suggesting that it's the practical implementation of prohibiting outside the home but not inside the home that makes Chicago's particular attempt at prohibiting guns unworkable.
That's just one part.
Another part is focusing millions of dollars on making sure deer hunters in the southern portions of the state are carrying around a little plastic card. That money could have been spent on something that actually had an impact on the crime in Chicago.
Perhaps an approach that is more along the lines of NY would be more feasible....? How do they do it there?
I don't know.
It's the difference betwen Percy saying "CS, as Admin I prohibit you from posting at EvC" whilst turning a blind eye to your continued posting as a variety of different user names and Percy saying "CS, as Admin I prohibit you from posting at EvC" whilst actively stopping any new user accounts you create from posting.
Okay, now how do you enforce that in regards to prohibiting guns from being possessed outside of the home?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2249 by Straggler, posted 01-21-2014 5:17 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2251 by Straggler, posted 01-21-2014 5:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 2254 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2014 6:06 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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