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Author Topic:   How the NT quotes Tanach texts
Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013

Message 1 of 61 (717653)
01-29-2014 1:58 AM

The NT brings us prophecies of which it claims that they are fulfilled by JC.
Let us take a closer look at those. The first one we find in Matthew 1:21; she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel" (which means, God with us).
This text can be found in Isaiah 7:14; Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Imman'u-el. Revised Standard Version.
We see here that here in Isaiah is not spoken about a virgin, but about a young woman. It is of course much more normal that a young woman gets pregnant than that a virgin gets pregnant. But Isaiah clearly speaks about a young woman, and not a virgin. Some translations say, for instance the King James, say in Isaiah 7:14 virgin, and not young woman, but that is a wrong translation. The Hebrew word used in Isaiah 7:14 is almah, and that means young woman, and not virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin is betulah. That word is used for instance when the Torah speaks about Rebecca in Gen 24:16; The maiden was very fair to look upon, a virgin, whom no man had known.
This fact is recognized by many Christian Bible translators. For instance the New English Bible, the Good News Bible, the Revised Standard Version, and the New World Translation have translated this in the right way, and not as virgin.
So the NT has been misquoting the Hebrew Bible.
Nowhere in the Tanach (Tanach is compilation of the first letters of the three parts of the Hebrew Bible, Torah, Nevi'iem, (prophets), and Chetuviem, (writings)) is a virgin to be found who would get pregnant. In fact, NOWHERE in the Tanach does a virgin bear a child. This concept is only to found in pagan mythology.
And when we look at the whole chapter of Isaiah 7, then we see that it doesn't speak about the messiah. It speaks about God giving a sign to Achaz, that he will have peace in his days.
This chapter has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever.
What the NT does is ripping a text out of context, mistranslating it, and presenting it as a messianic prophecy.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matt 2:14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night, and departed to Egypt, 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."
Here a text from Hosea 11: 1 which says: out of Egypt I called my son is applied to the messiah.
But let's take a look WHO is the son of God in the Tanach: And you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my first-born son, and I say to you, "Let my son go that he may serve me"; if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your first-born son.'" Exodus 4:22
This is clear language. And also in Hosea 11:1 it CLEARLY speaks about Israel, which has been led out of slavery from Egypt by God. See here Hosea 11:1 complete, and not a part ripped out of context: When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Just read the whole chapter of Hosea 11 and see that it all speaks about Israel, and not about the messiah.
What the NT is doing here once again is ripping a piece of text out of context which has no bearing on the messiah whatsoever, and then present it as a messianic prophecy. Something it obviously is not.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matt 2:16-18 Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, was in a furious rage, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: A voice was heard in Ramah, wailing and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be consoled, because they were no more."
Here the NT claims that Jeremiah 31:15 speaks about a slaughter of children, taking place in the days of the messiah.
And now read what is really happening there: Jeremiah 31: 10 "Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the coastlands afar off; say, 'He who scattered Israel will gather him, and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.' 11 For the LORD has ransomed Jacob, and has redeemed him from hands too strong for him. 12 They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. 13 Then shall the maidens rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. 14 I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, says the LORD." 15 Thus says the LORD: "A voice is heard in Ramah, lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are not." 16 Thus says the LORD: "Keep your voice from weeping, and your eyes from tears; for your work shall be rewarded, says the LORD, and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. 17 There is hope for your future, says the LORD, and your children shall come back to their own country.
As everyone can see, this speaks about Israel which went into exile, and of whom God says that they will return from the exile back to the land of Israel.
Another text which has no bearing on the slaughter of children in the days of messiah which is ripped out of context by the NT and is presented to us as a messianic prophecy.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matthew 2:23 And he went and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, "He shall be called a Nazarene."
This prophecy won't take up much time, because you can go through the whole Hebrew Bible, and NOWHERE is it written that the messiah should live in Nazareth, or the he should be called Nazarene.
So the NT is also giving non-existing prophecies.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Matthew 26:14-15 "Then one of the twelve, who is called Judas Iscariot, having gone unto the chief priests, said, `What are ye willing to give me, and I will deliver him up to you?' and they weighed out to him thirty silverlings,"
Matthew 27: "3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."
This OT text can by found in Zech 11:12 "I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter."
As we see here in Zechariah, there is no messiah to be seen who is being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. And no potters fields are being bought in Zechariah.
As a matter of fact, in all of this text in Zechariah is no potter to be found.
No potter to be found?
No potter to be found.
The above translation of Zechariah 11:12 is from the New International Version. It says that Zechariah threw the money to the "potter" in the Temple.
In the Hebrew is written "yotseer". That can mean "potter", but it can also mean "treasurer".
In the Temple weren't any potters sitting around. Who was sitting there, was a treasurer, who accepted the gifts for the Temple.
So Zechariah doesn't speak about a potter, but about a treasurer.
This fact is recognized by the Revised Standard Version, it says here "treasurer" in stead of "potter".
Also Youngs Literal Translation says here "treasurer", and also the Contemporary English Version says here "treasury".
The Stone Edition of the Tanach says: "HASHEM (literally: "The Name) said to me, "Throw it to the treasurer of the Precious Stronghold which I have divested from them". So I threw it into the Temple of HASHEM, to the treasurer."
Also the New World Translation of the Watch Tower Society gives a good translation: At that, J-e-h-o-v-a-h said to me: Throw it to the treasurythe majestic value with which I have been valued from their standpoint. Accordingly I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw it into the treasury at the house of J-e-h-o-v-a-h."
So what we see here, is that there is no "potter" in Zechariah, and that the whole NT story about buying land of a potter has no bearing whatsoever on the text in Zechariah.
Also we have here a clear proof that the NT text is so orchestrated that it looks as if it fulfills OT prophecies. But because of the fact that they make here another mistake in the translation, the set up is clear to see for everybody.
And there is more. Look again to Matthew 27 and see what the Christians won't tell you: "9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me."
So here we see that Matthew claims that this text comes from Jeremiah, when in truth, it comes from Zechariah.
Another slip up of the New Testament which is supposedly divinely inspired.
Matthew was not capable of naming the right prophet.
And this is supposed to "proof" that JC is the messiah.
Well, with friends like Matthew, you don't need enemies anymore.
Next prophecy from the Tanach, as quoted by the NT:
Luke 24: 44 Then he said to them, "These are my words which I spoke to you, while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, 46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
But the problem is: NOWHERE in the Tanach is it written that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Another NT quote of OT prophecy which is nowhere to be found in the OT.
So what we see is that the NT, apart from giving non-existing prophecies, rips Tanach texts which have no bearing whatsoever on the messiah, out of context, and then presents them as "messianic prophecies fulfilled by JC".
With that practice the NT of course lost its last bit of believability it might have left.

Edited by Eliyahu, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 01-30-2014 3:30 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 28 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-01-2014 10:15 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 56 by arachnophilia, posted 02-07-2014 10:15 PM Eliyahu has not replied

Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013

Message 6 of 61 (717708)
01-30-2014 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
01-30-2014 3:30 AM

Re: OT must be understood through the NT
the disputed "almah" was ALWAYS understood to mean a virgin, until Christ came and the Pharisaical Jews rejected Him and therefore decided to insist it didn't mean virgin but "young woman
Interesting. From where do you get these ideas? You make them up on the spot?
That must be the case, because the Septuagint (LXX) translates the word "almah" as "young woman".
Of the seven times that the word "almah" appears in the Tanach, the LXX translates is four times as "young woman", one time as "youth", and only two times as "virgin", one of those two times being Isaiah 7:14.
So the translators of the LXX knew very well what "almah" means; "young woman".
So why does it state in Isaiah 7:14 "virgin"? Most likely Christian corruption.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 01-30-2014 3:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 01-30-2014 4:04 PM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 19 by ramoss, posted 01-31-2014 3:28 PM Eliyahu has not replied
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 02-07-2014 9:32 PM Eliyahu has not replied

Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013

Message 29 of 61 (717830)
02-02-2014 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dawn Bertot
02-01-2014 10:15 PM

Hardly. Actually this is an example of divine guidance. Just like the writers of the NT record some of the same events, and some writers refer to others writing, like Peter did with Paul,Jerimiah probably spoke the same truth to others and Zachariah actually recorded it. Or some Jermiahs witings were misplaced.
An assumption without the slightest proof.
The facts are: The quoted text is from Zechariah, and not from Jeremiah.
Since historical finds tend always to corroborate old and NT claims, if a writing that claimed to be from Jerimiah surfaced, would you then convert to Christianity?
Then I would not use the argument anymore that the NT writers were an-alphabetic ignoramuses who couldn't point out the right prophet.
But since that is not going to pop up, that fact keeps on standing.
The same inspiration that revealed to any of the prophets divine truth, could only make it known to a bunch uneducated fisherman, tax collectors and otherwise disinterested people, like the disciples, that these things refered to Christ.
Seriously, why would a bunch of disinterested people, with little or no imagination, place themselves in a position of death, just to create a new story that would literally cost them thier lives
Maybe because they had been bamboozled into believing something that was a hoax?
Maybe they didn't, but maybe the gospels were compiled long after the events had come to pass.
Why do Muslims kill themselves for their false religion?
People do weird things. And who can, with the limited tools of logic, probe the debts of the human mind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-01-2014 10:15 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013

Message 30 of 61 (717831)
02-02-2014 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Faith
01-30-2014 4:46 PM

Re: OT must be understood through the NT
Within the original context, yes, ABE: but the word is ambiguous no doubt because it has two references, an immediate and a future
And of course, when you randomly take Tanach texts which have no bearing on the messiah, and rip them out of context, and then mistranslate them, and then say they are messianic prophecies, then you can make everybody you want the messiah, whether it is Napoleon Bonaparte, Barak Obama, David Koresh, or the rooster of Moshe:
A Chassidic Rabbi Makes a Startling Discovery
My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning.
Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.
1. Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster* who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)
2. I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head**.' (Lam 3:5)
3. I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)
4. With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)
5. I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)
6. He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)
7/8. I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20, Num 20:8)
9/10. I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1 and it also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)
11. He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)
12. He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.'
(Lam. 3:2)
13. I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)
14. He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
15. In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)
16. He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)
17. In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)
18. Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)
19. I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem.
As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)
20. But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)
21. It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
22. The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)
23. With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)
24. He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)
25. He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)
26. He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)
27. I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)
28/29. I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15) 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)
30. Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)
31. She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)
32. She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)
33. She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)
34. The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)
35. After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)
36. He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)
37/38. We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14) 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)
39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,8:10,11:15).
42. We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it say, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)
There were many more messianic prophecies that I could have added that applied to my messianic rooster. Many more he will fulfill when he comes back.
In all seriousness the above example is no different then the lists claiming 200/300/400 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. They claim the odds against a single person fulfilling them are astronomical. Or of their claims that passages like Psalms 22, or Isaiah 53 are about their messiah/god. Consider this well when you see or hear the claims made by missionaries or just simple Christians who you may meet. If not there may be a prophecy that does really apply: 'They are a people bereft of council and they don't have understanding.'
* In Hebrew the word 'gever' means both 'man' and 'rooster'berew
** In Hebrew the word is resh aleph shin, which can be read as 'rosh' head'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Faith, posted 01-30-2014 4:46 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2014 1:11 AM Eliyahu has replied

Member (Idle past 2374 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013

Message 34 of 61 (717845)
02-02-2014 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dawn Bertot
02-02-2014 1:11 AM

The NT is not divinely inspired
The New Testament is confirmed the exact same way as the old testament
Of course not.
Fact of the matter is, that EVERY religion begins with a supposed revelation to one single person who then claims to be God, or the messiah, (JC) or a prophet from God, (Mo).
That is, EVERY religion, except for Judaism.
Judaism started with a revelation, not to one man, but to a people of millions op people, at mount Sinai, when God gave the Torah.
And in that Judaism is unique.
The NT, as usual, is based on the statement of one man that he was God and the messiah, eventhough he didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.
So no way that the NT is confirmed in the exact same way as the Torah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-02-2014 1:11 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Modulous, posted 02-02-2014 9:38 AM Eliyahu has not replied
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