Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Message of the Bible
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 69 of 213 (71572)
12-08-2003 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Yaro
12-06-2003 11:11 PM


*BUMP*
Sorry for being so demanding. Yet no satisfactory answer has surfaced. Each one presented has been well contested and/or refuted. An answer to this issue should be found. One side must conceed to the other.
Or perhapse I am just wishfull thinking?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Yaro, posted 12-06-2003 11:11 PM Yaro has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 71 of 213 (71784)
12-09-2003 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Brian
12-08-2003 2:25 PM


A well thought out and informative reply Brian. I apreciate it. You and CA have given some great historical context to the stories and confirmed my suspisions, that the attrocities commited in the bible were not ordained by god, necissarly, but rather done by men in gods name.
Willow Tree seems to have given up on this thread and that is a shame , because I would love to see a refutation of this from a christians perspective. Basicaly, the horrible actions were a cultural product, and not orders or practices god condoned (as the bible claims).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 12-08-2003 2:25 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Brian, posted 12-09-2003 10:29 AM Yaro has not replied
 Message 73 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-14-2003 7:02 PM Yaro has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 75 of 213 (75176)
12-26-2003 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Rand Al'Thor
12-14-2003 8:12 PM


hey WT.
back from vacation.
I will answer your last post soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 12-14-2003 8:12 PM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 77 of 213 (76349)
01-03-2004 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Cold Foreign Object
12-14-2003 7:02 PM


Sorry for the long wait. Holdays and all
What about those children who insulted the Prophet and got killed by the bears ?
The Prophet spoke for God. He was the most feared person wherever he went. When the Prophet spoke it was equivalent to God Himself speaking. The Prophet reacted angrily to the childrens taunts and cursed them. Then the bears came out and devoured them.
Can you site the scripture where it says that the prophets words were equivelent to gods words etc. Just out of curiosity is all.
God wants it known that whatever He says comes to pass - even to the hurt of those innocent children.
Sp basically god can be a tyrant if he wants? He can make killing kids a good thing?
See this is the point I was makeing above that you again ignore. How does god doing it make it a good thing? Why is god telling people to force girls into marrige, or kill babies, make those acts good an holly?
And don't say God can do anything, because you yourself admit that he can't.
I realize the obvious "couldn't God teach His lesson without having to kill children" I guess not
God can do anything can't he!? So that means he dosn't have to kill the kids. Or have the virgins raped, etc.
if you think about it objectively it really gets His point across. Even if the Prophet cursed them in the heat of an embarrassing moment God kept the word spoken by his prophet.
So it was a good thing to kill 42 kids, because it made a point? What are you on! Murder is murder, and killing 42 kids for calling some dude baldy is unconsionable. Sorry. I'm just not buying your argument.
If god can do anything, he dosn't have to kill anyone.
God wants it known that whatever He says will happen - this is why He told on Himself and allowed this event to be recorded in His book. God could of easily omitted this from the record and no one today would ever know. But He didn't because He wants it known that whatever He says will happen.
Can you site the scripture that supports this assertion? Last time I read god made the flood to end wickedness, didn't seem to work did it?
And Adam didn't die that very day. I don't care how you want to streach that one.
When a person ascertains and realizes that God does what He says, that He can be trusted, this gives a person the basis to have faith.
God wants it known that if He without variation keeps His word in things pertaining to hurt/evil the negative (if you will) THEN HOW MUCH MORE will He keep His word in all the good things.
God wants it known that His Son is the Second Adam who finished His course and defeated Satan, and that on this basis God can now pour out the goodness promised in the New Testsament to everyone who looks to Him by faith and trusts that He will do what He says.
I don't know about Dr. Gene scott, but none of this stuff is in the bible I read.
So, when the isrealite soldiers killd the babies, old people, and forced the virgins into wedlock with their sweaty, horney, murderous, men. god made that good and right? yes or no.
And when 42 kids were murderd by bears for being, well, kids. God made that good? yes or no.
And in the Jebesh-Giliad scenario. God made kidnapping women and forcing them into marrige good? yes or no.
See, it's very simple really. The fact is god can do whatever he wants right? So basicaly, it's his choice if he wants to go about things in a mean spireited, lets kill lots of people kind of way, or a happy lets all get along sort of afair.
I mean, if god wanted to he could have just had the isrealites give the cannanites lots of big fluffy bunies, and hugs and kisses to win them over. Right?
So basicaly, god chose to cause murder and warfare. Cuz that's his thing. He dug it.
Remember, God can do anything. Which means all options are open to him. Which means if he chooses to prove a point by murdering 42 kids or writting it out in the clouds, is totaly up to him.
What I'm saying is, god seems to like killing a whole lot. Cuz certaily he could think of other ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-14-2003 7:02 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-03-2004 4:50 PM Yaro has replied
 Message 84 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-04-2004 6:40 PM Yaro has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 83 of 213 (76427)
01-03-2004 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Cold Foreign Object
01-03-2004 4:50 PM


No proble. Re-reading my post I noticed that I may have sounded too harsh. I apologize, It was late at night when I posted it. I really don't mean to break the rule of civility, and all in all am enjoying this debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-03-2004 4:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 88 of 213 (76611)
01-05-2004 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Cold Foreign Object
01-04-2004 6:40 PM


WT.
You avoided my questions at the last post. Can god make killing and rape a good thing?
Also, you totaly ignored my statement:
If god can do anything, whu did he have to kill old folks, babys, and have virgins raped, oops forced into marrige?
Here you also state that a preacher is needed to understand the bible. Isn't the bible supposed to be straight forward? Anyone reading it should note it's divinity.
You also toss the word 'subjective' around as if you are using it as a synanim for 'arvitrary'. All opinions are subjective, even yours. It follows that any opinion is subjective. So how do we overcome this hurdle? Thrugh logic and examination.
1. Of or pertaining to a subject.
2. Especially, pertaining to, or derived from, one's own
consciousness, in distinction from external observation;
ralating to the mind, or intellectual world, in
distinction from the outward or material excessively
occupied with, or brooding over, one's own internal
states.
So, I apply logic to the bible and I find a real strange God. Hes a god who chooses to dispense justice in the creulest of maners. He condemns the inocent constantly.
How can the cannanites be thumbing their noses at him when they had never heard of him? What did the babys do? And why were the virgins to be kept?
Sure, you could say it's my strange sense of 21st century morals, that tell me rape and murder are wrong. But I could counter argue, that it's your strange sense of 20th century BC morals that tell you these things are right.
If I cannot use my own mind to derive gods word, from what is obviously a mythological text, why do I need a special interpreter? From cover to cover I read unbelivable stories, and skewd ethics. Why on earth should I regard this text as special?
This is how the bible struck me as I read it:
There see no special message in the bible, I don't think there is a common thread that ties the whole thing together. The books are disparet accounts, united in theme by similar religious folklore. It is basicaly a rulebook, and fictionalized history, of the isrealy people.
The new testament is an appendicis added on by dubious sources. It is an attempt to reform the old theology. It makes the claim of unity thrugh all the books, but it's poor understanding of the OT makes even that claim dubious.
Can you demonstrate the common line thrugh the bible? And answer my questions above?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-04-2004 6:40 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 91 of 213 (76770)
01-06-2004 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Cold Foreign Object
01-05-2004 11:49 PM


Does God do what he says, or whatever he wants?
How do we know then when god does what he says?
God said he would destroy the world with the flood to eliminate evil. It didn't eliminate evil. God says he dosn't repent, or makes mistakes, yet he regrets in several places, and even gets angry and throws fits. He says he dosn't lie, yet he commisions liers on several occasions.
I think God does whatever the heck he pleases, not what he says.
WT, how do you know somebody elses god isint puting a lying spirit in all christians?
Maybe Odin is pissed off nobody belives in him any more, and is messing with all our heads.
Whats your proof, that a god who lies and murders when he feels like it, isn't kying to us now?
The way you paint it is that he is a despot, and we can love it or suffer the consequences. Well, how do you know HE is the despot, and not some other god?
Aren't you playing spiritual rulete with all the other world religions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-05-2004 11:49 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-06-2004 11:27 PM Yaro has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 113 of 213 (77337)
01-09-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by P e t e r
01-09-2004 10:33 AM


Maybe you were provided an offering from God, but for some reason you declined it.
Nope. I read the bible, didn't understand what the fuss was about. End of story.
Point, made any contracts lately? Bet you have!
See any contracts in verse, hint OT, NT.
Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters , for either he will hate the one and will love the other, or he will cleave to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
I don't understand this. Sorry, could you please spell it out for me? I don't see the relationship between banks and loans when it concerns the nature of god.
Infact, if you are saying that life is a loan of some kind, I would contest that your analogy is faulty.
It would be more akin to owing a huge lump of cash, yet nobody told yo u you did, and you never knew you took out the loan in the first place. The lender never sends you a single letter, or notice, you don't hear a word. Then years down the line you realize your broke, an d your credit is ruind due to an outstanding debt you knew nothing about.
That sounds more like a god loan.
Guidelines! I tend to see them as laws in the OT, and commandments in the NT.
How can laws or commandments be rutinely broken by the very people who are supposed to obey them, and get told its ok.
After all, nobody has been able to tell me how god can make raping virgins an ok thing. Can god make these things good peter? Can God make men pillaging and looting inocent people a good thing?
Sorry, I don't buy it.
Have you heard, God has chosen a people?
Ever give consideration that Israel became a nation again about 60 years ago?
Mark 13:8
For nation shall rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be earthquakes in [different] places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these things [are the] beginnings of throes. 9 But *ye*, take heed to yourselves, for they shall deliver you up to sanhedrims and to synagogues: ye shall be beaten and brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony to them; 10 and the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
ya, that clearly says that Isreal would become a nation in former palestine in the 1960's due to a zionist movement, and world wide sympathies after the nazi hollocaust.
I mean, it spells it out so clearly in that quote! How could I ever have missed it!
I mean, jeez, it even got the earthquakes and famin! Who knew there would be earthquakes in the future! Not to mention people going hungry! My god, the forsight! It's amazing!
Here is an exercise for you. Where does it say Isreal will become a nation in the bible? Find me the chapter and verse were it says that clear as day, and then I will belive it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by P e t e r, posted 01-09-2004 10:33 AM P e t e r has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by P e t e r, posted 01-09-2004 12:46 PM Yaro has replied
 Message 121 by P e t e r, posted 01-09-2004 10:41 PM Yaro has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 115 of 213 (77351)
01-09-2004 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by P e t e r
01-09-2004 12:46 PM


Hey Peter,
A minor thing, but you rutinely sign off with Chow for now. Maybe it's on purpose, an no offence intended, but it's spelled Ciao. I think there is an accent in there as well to be totaly accurate
Anyway, just letting you know. Now on to the topic at hand.
I'll take that as you declining that something who's source could be from God.
Well, I read the bible with the intent of seeing for myself if the text seemed divinely inspired. But it didn't. It read like a collection of myths and belifes of an ancient culture.
I have read other books simmilar too it, comming from various places around the world. It was interesting, but it never struck me as being particularly 'true'.
Nope, trying to emphasize how we are bound to the contracts/agreements we make and the resulting outcomes.
Well, I'm still not following. What contract or agreement?
Idealy they should be kept, but some can't keep them or comphrehend that they ought to.
Hebrews 9;28
thus the Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear to those that look for him the second time without sin for salvation.
I was reffering to instances were horrible acts were orderd by God. Read some of the first posts in this thread. God ordered babys dashed on rocks, women raped, old folks murdered, and loot be given unto his temple.
We are talking some horrible stuff.
You also ignored some other points in my post concerning prophecy. But we can let that rest for now as it may take us on a tangent. Lets concern ourselves with gods Laws and Commandments.
Can god make rapeing and killing babys good?
That's my question. It merits a yes or a no.
Also, consider that this is exactly what god orders people to do on several occasions thrughout the bible.
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-09-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by P e t e r, posted 01-09-2004 12:46 PM P e t e r has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by crashfrog, posted 01-09-2004 6:02 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 117 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-09-2004 9:58 PM Yaro has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 118 of 213 (77475)
01-09-2004 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Cold Foreign Object
01-09-2004 9:58 PM


WT,
Maybe you see it as a circle because you refuse to acknowledge, or adress the idea, that virgins whos families were slaughterd, then forced to mary their parents killers, isn't some form of rape.
You have yet to respond to the very simple question:
Can god make infantacide, and rape YES RAPE, a good thing?
It is inconceivable to me that somehow you can twist, what is obviously a very graphic account of the dehuminization of a grupe of people, as just punishment.
If someone murderd your family, then forced you to serve them, woulden't you say you have been raped in a way?
Can I not say the same for young girls, who had their lives destroyed, being forced to wed (and presumabley conduct themselves as wives, including sex) the very people who murderd their parents?
How is this justice?
Perhapse WT, it's because you dance around this issue in every post. You never answer the question of: by what mechinisim can god make these horrible actions right?
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-09-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-09-2004 9:58 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Yaro, posted 01-09-2004 10:09 PM Yaro has not replied
 Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-09-2004 11:23 PM Yaro has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 119 of 213 (77476)
01-09-2004 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Yaro
01-09-2004 10:05 PM


May I also add WT,
That I think you are giving up. I have met all your points, you have yet to adress some of my fundamental arguments at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Yaro, posted 01-09-2004 10:05 PM Yaro has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 143 of 213 (77571)
01-10-2004 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object
01-09-2004 11:23 PM


Ok WT,
I accept this as your view. Basicaly, whatever god says god does, and it is right. And it dosn't matter what he says or does, cuz it's right now matter what.
That's the gist if it.
Now, If I may ask you a final question. I promiss, this is the only one I want answerd, I won't pester you anymore.
If god is omnipotent, and all powerfull, why does he choose to exact these awfull punishments at all?
Certainly an all powerfull, all mighty god, capable of doing anything, can devise a non-violent and peacefull solution to the error of his creations ways. Wouldn't you agree?
So dosn't all this bloodshed seem silly?
I mean, if god is all powerfull, then he dosn't need any blood shed to accomplish what he wants. He can do it anyway he wants. Right?
So, it follows, that he wants to go the violent, sadistic, and murderous route. I mean, he must actually desire to do it this way. Since he's god, all other options are open to him. So why does he insist on hurting people?
This question is open to anyone who can adress it. Perhapse I will start a topic on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-09-2004 11:23 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-10-2004 2:13 PM Yaro has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 149 of 213 (77655)
01-10-2004 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Cold Foreign Object
01-10-2004 2:13 PM


WT,
You are not pestering me, but I do you feel you only want answers that conclude what you already have concluded.
Pot calling the kettle black I'd say.
To you everyone is innocent minding their own business getting murdered by God for absolutely no reason at all.
Not everyone, and no. I am appaled at the punishment, and fail to see how it fits the crime. How is killing babys, and forcing women into marrige a just punishment for any crime?
You refuse to even acknowledge a context that each individual event happens in.
WT, takeing the context of the origional story in question. We have a tribe of people, who have not heard of god for ages, then they are wiped out by another tribe with no warning, only a proclimation of divine inheritance.
But, as you say, let us not repeat ourselves...
I understand your belife, you say whatever god does is the right thing. It dosn't matter what it is, if he comands it, it's good.
So if god commands murder, its good. If he commands lies, its good. If he commands abduction and forced marrige/servitude/rape, it's good.
I understand that you view this as just due to our fallen nature, etc. I understand your theology.
Now, I would like you to adress the very direct quetion in my last post. It's basically what boils down to my whole problem with the thing, and perhapse I am blind to something.
But I understand that god is supposed to be all powerull.
Why must an all powerfull god resort to violence, pain, etc. When he has every other option in his grasp.
Could he not just as easely solved all these problems using non-violent methods? After all, he is God, he must have had such methods at his disposal.
So why, a god having all options open to him, would choose the violent, murderous, and vengefull path, over the peacefull path?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-10-2004 2:13 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 173 of 213 (77900)
01-12-2004 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Cold Foreign Object
01-11-2004 7:54 PM


Hey WT,
Im really curious about the answer to this one:
http://EvC Forum: Message of the Bible -->EvC Forum: Message of the Bible
I asked aquestions. It is the only one I want adressed, I have yet to hear one.
I look forward to your reply.
Thanx.
[This message has been edited by Yaro, 01-12-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-11-2004 7:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 01-12-2004 9:47 PM Yaro has not replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 190 of 213 (78422)
01-14-2004 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by P e t e r
01-14-2004 2:12 AM


Were does it say that? The clensing? That was comon practice, its even in leviticus. You have to clense after bloodshed etc. Besides earlyer on before teh sige moses explicitly tells them to keep the virgins.
Your argument makes no sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by P e t e r, posted 01-14-2004 2:12 AM P e t e r has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by P e t e r, posted 01-14-2004 12:51 PM Yaro has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024