Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,419 Year: 3,676/9,624 Month: 547/974 Week: 160/276 Day: 34/23 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(5)
Message 9 of 342 (717864)
02-02-2014 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Eliyahu
02-02-2014 6:43 AM


Your argument seems to rely on quoting real scientists out of context and then daydreaming that they mean what you want them to mean. Perhaps we should let them, in their own words, supply some context, and explain what they meant.
---
"In fact, the operation of Darwinian processes should yield exactly what we see in the fossil record." --- Gould, Evolution's Erratic Pace, Natural History 86(5):12-16.
"Our theory holds, as a defining statement, that ordinary allopatric speciation, unfolding gradually at microevolutionary scales, translates to punctuation in geological time." --- Stephen Jay Gould, The Structure of Evolutionary Theory
"Faced with these facts of evolution and the philosophical bankruptcy of their own position, creationists rely upon distortion and innuendo to buttress their rhetorical claim. If I sound sharp or bitter, indeed I am - for I have become a major target of these practices." --- Stephen Jay Gould, Evolution as Fact and Theory
"Stasis had continued to be ignored until Gould and I showed that such stability is a real aspect of life's history which must be confronted - and that, in fact, it posed no fundamental threat to the basic notion of evolution itself." --- Niles Eldredge, Time Frames
"My version of how the evolutionary process works lines up very well with Darwin’s. [...] this new picture is not un-Darwinian, let alone anti-Darwinian. [...] I confess that I am a true Darwinist." --- Nile Eldredge, Confessions of a Darwinist.
"Q: Does the fossil record provide evidence for the existence of transitional forms?
A: Yes, it does.
Q: Are there many such examples?
A: Yes, there are." --- Stephen Jay Gould, sworn testimony in McClean v. Arkansas.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact." --- Stephen Jay Gould, Evolution as Fact and Theory
"I think they [creationists] proceed by misquotation, by selective quotation, and by invoking supernatural intervention to produce the basic kinds of life, all of which are not only unscientific, but represent skill and rhetoric rather than science." --- Stephen Jay Gould, sworn testimony in McClean v. Arkansas.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Eliyahu, posted 02-02-2014 6:43 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 20 of 342 (717897)
02-02-2014 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
02-02-2014 3:28 PM


It doesn't matter what Gould or any others themselves meant, if what they said has implications for creationist views that's a perfectly valid way to use their quotes.
Well in that case there's a huge gap --- more of a bottomless abyss, really --- between the bit of Eliyahu's post where he quotes Gould and Eldredge, and the bit where he writes "So there we have it: NO evolution".
He needs to fill that gap by explaining why the "implications" of Gould and Eldredge's work are in fact the exact opposite of what Gould and Eldredge thought they were: why Eliyahu concludes "So there we have it: NO evolution" and that their writing "rips apart the evolution theory" when they write "In fact, the operation of Darwinian processes should yield exactly what we see in the fossil record" (Gould) and "My version of how the evolutionary process works lines up very well with Darwin’s" (Eldredge).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 02-02-2014 3:28 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 7:20 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 32 of 342 (717922)
02-03-2014 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 1:49 AM


Re: You missed a quote or two
So back to the real paleontologists: They all sing in unison that there is NO evolution to be seen in the fossile record, only stasis and sudden appearance of new species.
Don't you ever worry that you might ... y'know ... end up burning in Hell while Satan spits the word LIAR! in your face for all eternity?
Only if I was religious, and if I lied as much as you do, it would worry me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 1:49 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 33 of 342 (717923)
02-03-2014 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 12:24 AM


Stanley
And no, I'm not trying to make the quote say the opposite, everybody with two working braincells can see that the quotes say what I say they say, namely that there is NO evolution to be found in the fossil record [...] So, this quote for instance: "Species that were once thought to have turned into others have been found to overlap in time with these alleged descendants. In fact, the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another."
Except that he's talking about the fossil record of one particular locale (the Bighorn Basin) and one particular time (the Early Eocene). Obviously he's not saying that there are no transitions to be found in the entire fossil record, he's not insane or a dirty stupid liar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 12:24 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 34 of 342 (717924)
02-03-2014 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 1:49 AM


The Song Paleontologists Sing
It is the post of Razd against all the evolutionists.
Oh, I think I can find a few evolutionists who would agree with RAZD that there's paleontological evidence for evolution. Like, oh, a few dozen national academies of science.
"Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision." --- Albanian Academy of Sciences; National Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences, Argentina; Australian Academy of Science; Austrian Academy of Sciences; Bangladesh Academy of Sciences; The Royal Academies for Science and the Arts of Belgium; Academy of Sciences and Arts of Bosnia and Herzegovina; Brazilian Academy of Sciences; Bulgarian Academy of Sciences; The Academies of Arts, Humanities and Sciences of Canada; Academia Chilena de Ciencias; Chinese Academy of Sciences; Academia Sinica, China, Taiwan; Colombian Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences; Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences; Cuban Academy of Sciences; Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic; Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters; Academy of Scientific Research and Technology, Egypt; Acadmie des Sciences, France; Union of German Academies of Sciences and Humanities; The Academy of Athens, Greece; Hungarian Academy of Sciences; Indian National Science Academy; Indonesian Academy of Sciences; Academy of Sciences of the Islamic Republic of Iran; Royal Irish Academy; Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities; Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy; Science Council of Japan; Kenya National Academy of Sciences; National Academy of Sciences of the Kyrgyz Republic; Latvian Academy of Sciences; Lithuanian Academy of Sciences; Macedonian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Academia Mexicana de Ciencias; Mongolian Academy of Sciences; Academy of the Kingdom of Morocco; The Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences; Academy Council of the Royal Society of New Zealand; Nigerian Academy of Sciences; Pakistan Academy of Sciences; Palestine Academy for Science and Technology; Academia Nacional de Ciencias del Peru; National Academy of Science and Technology, The Philippines; Polish Academy of Sciences; Acadmie des Sciences et Techniques du Sngal; Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Singapore National Academy of Sciences; Slovak Academy of Sciences; Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts; Academy of Science of South Africa; Royal Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences of Spain; National Academy of Sciences, Sri Lanka; Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences; Council of the Swiss Scientific Academies; Academy of Sciences, Republic of Tajikistan; Turkish Academy of Sciences; The Uganda National Academy of Sciences; The Royal Society, UK; US National Academy of Sciences; Uzbekistan Academy of Sciences; Academia de Ciencias Fsicas, Matemticas y Naturales de Venezuela; Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences; The Caribbean Academy of Sciences; African Academy of Sciences; The Academy of Sciences for the Developing World (TWAS); The Executive Board of the International Council for Science (ICSU).
So back to the real paleontologists: They all sing in unison that there is NO evolution to be seen in the fossile record
What a dumb lie. Let's see what song paleontologists actually sing in unison, shall we?
"Evolution is both a scientific fact and a scientific theory. Evolution is a fact in the sense that life has changed through time. In nature today, the characteristics of species are changing, and new species are arising. The fossil record is the primary factual evidence for evolution in times past, and evolution is well documented by further evidence from other scientific disciplines, including comparative anatomy, biogeography, genetics, molecular biology, and studies of viral and bacterial diseases." --- The Paleontological Society
"The fossil record of vertebrates unequivocally supports the hypothesis that vertebrates have evolved through time, from their first records in the early Paleozoic Era about 500 million years ago to the great diversity we see in the world today. The hypothesis has been strengthened by so many independent observations of fossil sequences that it has come to be regarded as a confirmed fact, as certain as the drift of continents through time or the lawful operation of gravity." --- Society of Vertebrate Paleontology
In order to give an explanation for the total lack of fossil evidence the PE theory was made up.
According to the people who actually made up the PE theory, you are lying. Gould, for example, stated under oath in McLean v. Arkansas that there were many examples of transitional forms in the fossil record, and said "So it's not true to say that punctuated equilibrium is just an argument born of despair, because you don't see transitional forms."
Hmm, who to believe about Gould's work, Gould himself, speaking under oath and penalty of perjury, or a creationist who keeps getting caught telling dumb lies?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 1:49 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 35 of 342 (717925)
02-03-2014 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 1:38 AM


Re: You missed a quote or two
So far you didn't get any further than saying: "Your quotes are lying".
You are lying about what Coyote said. That is not a quote from Coyote, you made it up.
With that you implicate that the big evolutionists from whom these quotes are coming are lying.
You are lying about what Coyote meant. That is not what he implied, you made that up.
Oh, by the way, I hope we can get this debate above the level of calling each other a liar.
But you are a liar. And this is very evident: your lies are not subtle; you are, not to put too fine a point on it, not very good at lying. So if you don't want people to remark on what a shameless witless pointless liar you are, then you should stop lying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 1:38 AM Eliyahu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 8:46 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 50 of 342 (717945)
02-03-2014 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 8:46 AM


Re: The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
If you don't mind I'm going to continue this debate with others.
This will not, of course, prevent me from pointing out your dumb lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 8:46 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 51 of 342 (717946)
02-03-2014 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 7:41 AM


Re: The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
You may be able to take quotes out of context and dishonestly make them say that, but how do you account for the fact that the scientists who are being mis-quoted say that creationists are mis-quoting them?
Dishonest evolutionistic scientists.
So according to you the very scientists you're using as sources for your exercise in quotemining are liars and not to be trusted, Gould in particular perjuring himself on the witness stand.
Well in that case, you should make that clear when you're quotemining them. For example, you could write:
The WELL-KNOWN LIAR and CRIMINAL PERJURER Stephen Jay Gould, who LIES ABOUT PALEONTOLOGY and SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED ABOUT THE FOSSIL RECORD wrote "Stasis, or nonchange, of most fossil species during their lengthy geological lifespans was tacitly acknowledged by all paleontologists, but almost never studied explicitly because prevailing theory treated stasis as uninteresting nonevidence for nonevolution."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 7:41 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 69 of 342 (717983)
02-03-2014 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 12:58 PM


Re: The fossile record conclusively disproves evolution
I give the exact quotes, so by definition I'm not obfuscating anything. And their true meaning is saying that the fossil record does not show any evolution
You are lying. And we all know you're lying.
"Quote-mining" is an expression, invented by evolutionists, who, because of cognitive dissonance, are unable to understand and/or accept the meaning of very clear, straightforward statements made by very scholarly evolutionists.
You are lying. And we all know you're lying.
Because of that cognitive dissonance they become very irrational, and start saying absurd things, for instance, that somebody who quotes an evolutionist professor is a liar, and they cannot understand that then the one who made that statement is really the liar, because he is the one who made that statement in the first place.
You are lying. And we all know you're lying.
---
Now, what I don't understand is this. I know why you lied in the first place. It's because creationism can only be supported with lies, and because you're a filthy putrid stinking dirty liar. But why do you go on lying after you've been caught? When everyone knows you're lying? You're not going to deceive anyone, are you? Do you just take some perverse pleasure in falsehood, like a pig wallowing in its own filth?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 12:58 PM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by tsig, posted 02-15-2014 5:32 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 84 of 342 (718001)
02-03-2014 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 12:58 PM


Authority
You say that relying on authority is a "logical fallacy". Well that statement of you is the logical fallacy. Or you must be of the opinion that it is better to rely on laymen in scientific issues...
No, I didn't think so.
OK, so who to believe about paleontology? The layman Eliyahu, or the paleontologists?
"Evolution is both a scientific fact and a scientific theory. Evolution is a fact in the sense that life has changed through time. In nature today, the characteristics of species are changing, and new species are arising. The fossil record is the primary factual evidence for evolution in times past, and evolution is well documented by further evidence from other scientific disciplines, including comparative anatomy, biogeography, genetics, molecular biology, and studies of viral and bacterial diseases." --- The Paleontological Society
"The fossil record of vertebrates unequivocally supports the hypothesis that vertebrates have evolved through time, from their first records in the early Paleozoic Era about 500 million years ago to the great diversity we see in the world today. The hypothesis has been strengthened by so many independent observations of fossil sequences that it has come to be regarded as a confirmed fact, as certain as the drift of continents through time or the lawful operation of gravity." --- Society of Vertebrate Paleontology

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 12:58 PM Eliyahu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-04-2014 12:11 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 93 of 342 (718028)
02-03-2014 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
02-03-2014 6:28 PM


Re: Nothing can ever disprove evolution
The fact is that NOTHING can ever disprove evolution.
You may have inadvertently told the truth --- it is almost certainly the case that nothing can disprove evolution. As you are a creationist, I presume that you intended to pretend that nothing would disprove evolution, which is obviously false: lots of things would disprove it if they were actually true. For example the one thing Eliyahu is quite right about is that it would disprove evolution if there was no sign of it in the fossil record. That's why the little liar is wasting so much energy in pretending that this is the case.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 02-03-2014 6:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 96 of 342 (718032)
02-03-2014 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
02-03-2014 8:18 PM


Re: Nothing can ever disprove evolution
Naa, you'd just "prove" it was a hoax somehow or other, and blame it on creationists too of course, or it accidentally got dislodged and displaced somehow, or you'd misidentified that layer. You'd come up with something.
So now you're playing make-believe about what people would do under a set of imaginary circumstances?
Can I join in? If you saw a magic unicorn, you'd crap yourself. That's my imaginary made-up story, and I'm sticking to it.
Of course, if you could find something which did actually disprove evolution, you wouldn't have to play make-believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 02-03-2014 8:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 02-03-2014 10:55 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 124 of 342 (718078)
02-04-2014 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
02-03-2014 10:55 PM


Re: Nothing can ever disprove evolution
There's so much that disproves evolution, where to start? Well, start with the fact that you DON'T have the transitionals Darwin said you'd have to have. You have a few paltry wannabe transitionals, but nothing like the great number and variety Darwin knew were required.
Your lie does not disprove evolution, because of being a lie.
However, we may note that it would disprove evolution if it was true, and you yourself know this, which is why you tell it. So when you pretend that nothing would disprove evolution, you yourself know that you're talking crap.
The mere appearance of created things disproves it, so clearly the result of a Creative Intelligence, not mindless physical and chemical accidents. But you deny that too, pretend an Intelligence is not needed. Invent scenarios, Interpretations, call them Fact, say This happened, That happened, as if it really did. Silly Putty.
Your circular reasoning does not disprove evolution, because of it being a childish logical fallacy.
When there's the Flood, which so nicely accounts for the strata and the fossils but you can just assert it doesn't and make up Likely Stories out of bits and pieces of known fact but mostly sheer imagination, say you've disproved the Flood. Yes, just say it, that's all you have to do, name it and it's true. Silly Putty.
The Flood does not disprove evolution, because of it being a made-up story for which no-one can find any evidence, and against which there is copious evidence. The idea that it "nicely accounts for the strata and the fossils" could only occur to someone so pitifully ignorant of geology as you are.
Darwin declared that what was known to have genetic causes, i.e. microevolution or the well known variation within Species, which is the ONLY known "descent with modification" was capable of producing new Species. Simply declared it, no evidence, no proof, just rename things and there you have it.
Your lie does not disprove evolution, because of being a lie.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 02-03-2014 10:55 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 131 of 342 (718094)
02-04-2014 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Eliyahu
02-03-2014 11:27 PM


Who?
There is a very simple and irrifutable proof that my quotes are right, and that is the punctuated equilibrium theory.
If the fossil record showed species turning into other species, who would need PE?
Stephen Jay Gould, the guy who thought up P.E, that's who. Stephen Jay Gould, who says (in his essay Evolution As Fact And Theory) that transitional forms are "abundant" in the fossil record, who stated on oath that there were "many" of them in his testimony in McLean v. Arkansas, and who stated, again under oath, that "it's not true to say that punctuated equilibrium is just an argument born of despair, because you don't see transitional forms."
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Eliyahu, posted 02-03-2014 11:27 PM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 132 of 342 (718104)
02-04-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Dr Adequate
02-03-2014 3:16 PM


Re: Authority
Let's have some more of that authority Eliyahu likes so much.
"The crowning achievement of paleontology has been the demonstration, from the history of life, of the validity of the evolutionary theory [...] The fossil record contains many well-documented examples of the transition from one species into another, as well as the origin of new physical features." --- American Geological Institute.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-03-2014 3:16 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by RAZD, posted 02-04-2014 3:04 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024