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Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature.... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JRTjr01 Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 97 From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A. Joined: |
Dear Ringo,
Always a pleasure hearing from you.
Ringo writes: I said, "There is no absolute truth." I did not say, "There is absolutely no absolute truth." I do leave the door open for the possibility of absolute truth. "There is no absolute truth" and "There is absolutely no absolute truth" are saying the exact same thing. ‘There is no’ is an unequivocal statement; it does not leave room for anything less; so, by using it you are not ‘leaving the door open for anything’. I.e. you did not have to add ‘absolute’ to your statement because your statement was already giving ‘no room’ for the possibility of there being anything less. If I say There are no Apples in the basket and you look in the basket and you see an apple I am not telling you the truth. There either ‘are’ or ‘are not’ apples in the basket. So, which statement are you going to stand behind?
"There is no absolute truth Or There is an open door for the possibility of absolute truth. It has to be ‘one’ or ‘the other’ because these are two ‘mutually exclusive’ statements. That means they cannot both be true (factual). One of these statements is true :-} and one is not :-{ Thanks for the stimulating exchange,
JRTjr
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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JRTjr writes:
Obviously not. The word "absolutely" makes a difference. If I say, "There is no absolute truth," maybe you can be forgiven for assuming that I mean absolutely none - but if I say explicitly that I don't mean absolutely, you have no excuse.
"There is no absolute truth" and "There is absolutely no absolute truth" are saying the exact same thing. JRTjr writes:
If and only if unicorns are detected, I am willing to acknowledge that they exist. Until then, I will say, "There are no unicorns." So, which statement are you going to stand behind? "There is no absolute truth Or There is an open door for the possibility of absolute truth. The same applies to absolute truth.
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JRTjr01 Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 97 From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A. Joined: |
Merry Christmas to all; for those whom celebrate it, I hope it was a good one.
Dear Ringo, Always a pleasure hearing from you; I hope you’re holidays are filled with joy. Now that we have gone back and forth on this several times I hope you see that we have not come to an agreement on what is generally understood when using the phrase ‘There are no’. You say it means one thing I say it means something else —so— how would you suggest we work toward a resolution of this question? I clearly see what you ‘meant’ to say, however, what evidence can you provide to bolster your contention that what you said actually means what you meant it to indicate? God bless us, everyone,JRTjr.
mean
verb (used with object), meant, meaning. 1to have in mind as one's purpose or intention; intend: I meant to compliment you on your work. Synonyms: contemplate.
2to intend for a particular purpose, destination, etc.: They were meant for each other. Synonyms: destine, foreordain.
3to intend to express or indicate: What do you mean by liberal? (Dictionary.com)
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
JRTjr writes:
Since you know what I meant to say, I suggest you stop worrying about what the words really, really really mean and just get on with it.
Now that we have gone back and forth on this several times I hope you see that we have not come to an agreement on what is generally understood when using the phrase ‘There are no’.
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JRTjr01 Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 97 From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A. Joined: |
Dear Ringo,
Again, a pleasure hearing from you.
Ringo writes: Since you know what I meant to say, I suggest you stop worrying about what the words really, really really mean and just get on with it. I’d love nothing more than to ‘get on with it’; however, you seem to have trouble saying what you mean and meaning what you say. Since I can’t read your mind, especially from so far away ;-}, I can only go by what you post. To do that, however, we have to agree on the meanings of the words we use. (That’s where a Dictionary comes into play). If you’re willing to stick with what you say (as appose to changing it when someone backs you into a corner); I’m more than happy to move on. It’s really up to you. Are you going to stick with "There is no absolute truth? In which case you’re denying any (pardon the pun) ‘real’ possibility of ‘Absolute Truth’.
Or Are you going to go with the possibility that absolute truth may exist; however, you doubt it? I’ll take on either one. Hope to hear from you again soon,JRTjr P.s. Let me start you off with a few Definitions:
There:
pronoun(used to introduce a sentence or clause in which the verb comes before its subject or has no complement): There is no hope. (‘There’ Dictionary.com) Are: verbpresent indicative plural and 2nd person singular of be. Be: to have presence in the realm of perceived reality; exist; live: I think, therefore I am ; not all that is can be understood. (‘Are’ Dictionary.com) No: not in any degree or manner; not at all (used with a comparative): He is no better. not at all; far from being: He is no genius. (‘No’ Dictionary.com) Absolute: 4. undoubted; certain: the absolute truth5. not dependent on, conditioned by, or relative to anything else; independent: an absolute term in logic; the absolute value of a quantity in physics (‘ Absolute’ Dictionary.com) Truth: noun, plural truths [troothz, trooths] 1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth.2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement. 3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths. 4. the state or character of being true. 5. actuality or actual existence. (‘ Truth’ Dictionary.com)
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
JRTjr01 writes:
Yup.
Are you going to stick with "There is no absolute truth? JRTjr01 writes:
No. I'm denying the possibility that you can know it absolutely.
In which case you’re denying any (pardon the pun) ‘real’ possibility of ‘Absolute Truth’. JRTjr01 writes:
Yup. If it does exist, you can't know what it is, so it might as well not exist.
Are you going to go with the possibility that absolute truth may exist; however, you doubt it? JRTjr01 writes:
You'll take both. There's no contradiction.
I’ll take on either one. JRTjr01 writes:
Everything should be doubted.
Absolute: 4. undoubted;
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 375 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Everything should be doubted. Is this solipsism? Are you saying that we can not know for certain that today is the day after yesterday or other simple facts that are absolutely true? Is it not absolutely true that I have written these words? Are you not absolutely certain that you are alive?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
You couldn't have picked a worse example. I often don't know what day it is.
Are you saying that we can not know for certain that today is the day after yesterday or other simple facts that are absolutely true? ProtoTypical writes:
I'm fairly certain that I'm reading them. Who wrote them is less certain.
Is it not absolutely true that I have written these words? ProtoTypical writes:
No.
Are you not absolutely certain that you are alive?
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 375 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
You couldn't have picked a worse example. I often don't know what day it is. I chose it because it doesn't matter which day it is specifically. Isn't today always the day after yesterday? Isn't this absolutely true? Is there no way to form a statement in such a way that it is absolutely true?
No. So it is solipsism. abe; I'm fairly certain that I'm reading them. Who wrote them is less certain. What does belief have to do with truth? Edited by ProtoTypical, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
It's defined as true. It's trivially true.
Isn't today always the day after yesterday? Isn't this absolutely true? ProtoTypical writes:
Perception has everything to do with what we think is true. What we do - i.e. "reality" - is based on what we perceive as true, not on what "is" true.
What does belief have to do with truth?
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JRTjr01 Member (Idle past 2981 days) Posts: 97 From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A. Joined: |
Dear Ringo,
Thanks for your reply; hearing from you is always great fun.
Ringo writes: Everything should be doubted. Well, I doubt that. ;-}
Ringo writes: You'll take both. There's no contradiction. If they are not contradictory statements then, would you please, give me a definition of ‘Contradiction’ that does not apply to these two statements? Because, unless you can convince me that they are not contradictory, I will continue to state that they are (in fact) contradictory statements.
Hope to hear from you again soon, JRTjr
Contradiction:
n1. the act of going against; opposition; denial 2. a declaration of the opposite or contrary 3. a statement that is at variance with itself (often in the phrase a contradiction in terms) 4. conflict or inconsistency, as between events, qualities, etc 5. a person or thing containing conflicting qualities 6. logic a statement that is false under all circumstances; necessary falsehood (‘Contradiction’ Dictionary.com)
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 375 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
It's defined as true. So is everything a tautology? When we say that any atom with one electron is a hydrogen atom is that a tautology? Is it not an absolute truth that any atom with one electron is a hydrogen atom?
It's trivially true. Well its a start at least and shows that something can be absolutely true. From small cornerstones we can realize more profound truths. It seems to me that you are saying that we can not really know anything. What about mathematical truths? Is F=MA not always true? Or the speed of light in a vacuum?
Perception has everything to do with what we think is true. What we do - i.e. "reality" - is based on what we perceive as true, not on what "is" true. Are you saying that there is no connection between what we perceive is real and reality?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
JRTjr01 writes:
Good for you. That's a start.
ringo writes:
Well, I doubt that. Everything should be doubted. JRTjr01 writes:
I'm not here to convince you of anything. Because, unless you can convince me that they are not contradictory, I will continue to state that they are (in fact) contradictory statements. I have explained why there is no contradiction: until evidence of Bigfoot is shown I will say there is no Bigfoot; until evidence of absolute truth is shown I will say there is no absolute truth. There remains a possibility that Bigfoot exists and a possibility that absolute truth exists.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
An atom with one proton is called "hydrogen". That's its name. It's no more an absolute truth than your screen name is.
When we say that any atom with one electron is a hydrogen atom is that a tautology? ProtoTypical writes:
Always? Until forever is over, how can we know about always?
Is F=MA not always true? ProtoTypical writes:
Sure there's a connection but not an absolute one-to-one relationship.
Are you saying that there is no connection between what we perceive is real and reality?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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So is everything a tautology? When we say that any atom with one electron is a hydrogen atom is that a tautology? Is it not an absolute truth that any atom with one electron is a hydrogen atom? Some things are true by definition. I'm not sure that counts as 'absolutely true', but I suppose one could define it that way without too much difficulty For what its worth - there can exist atoms with only one electron that are not hydrogen atoms. Further reading into this off-topic point.
What about mathematical truths? These are contingent on the truth of the assumptions we use to derive them. There's a lot of debate about this one.
Is F=MA not always true? Again, a minor point but only where you measure F in Newtons, m in kilograms and a in ms-2. If you use other units it is not likely to be true. What might be always true is that F ∝ ma. But we don't know if this is always true. First quantum or relativistic effects may muck about with this finding, I don't know. More importantly, we can not know it is always true in all circumstances without observing it in all circumstances, which we cannot do. All empirical laws are general laws based on specific observations. These are the epitome of things for which there should be some doubt. Maybe more precise measurements will show the relationship doesn't always work or there is a small constant that has little impact except in certain circumstances. Maybe this doesn't work outside of a solar system. Maybe it only works in the observable universe, but in some regions outside of this it doesn't. This is, I believe, the kind of doubt we should have over these ideas. We may doubt them, but we put our lives in the hands of the notion they are true enough, and we can fly to the moon using them.
Or the speed of light in a vacuum? Again - we might have been measuring it wrong, it might vary over large time scales or over large distances or under unusual gravitational or interference. We're pretty confident that whatever it is, it is a constant and that is in some sense 'absolute'. But we can't say that there is no doubt whatsoever in this notion.
Are you saying that there is no connection between what we perceive is real and reality? Are you saying that human perception is 100% reliable? If not, then any conclusion based on human perception has some room for doubt. Even if we can mathematically reduce this to negligible amounts and linguistically choose to ignore it in discussion. Think about an assumption you have to make - that you can know the truth through perception. Are you saying there is no doubt here? That you are not in a Matrix, or just a brain in a jar or what have you?
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