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Author Topic:   Darwin on the Savage races
Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 1 of 114 (718244)
02-05-2014 6:46 PM


Darwin predicted that around about now "At some future period, not very distant, as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly (almost certainly, a favourite evolutionist interpretation of a proven fact) exterminate and replace throughout the world, the savage races"
Rather non PC but since it's science might I ask how potentially modern day members of the savage races who survived Darwin's fascist racist blatherings particularly evolutionists, feel about this?
Further more might I ask why musings like this are not equally mocked as wistful fables?
"For my own part I would soon be descended from that heroic little monkey who braved his dreaded enemy to save the life of his keeper, or that old baboon, who, descending the mountains, carried away in triumph his young comrade from a crowd of astonished dogs - as from a savage... "
Darwin quotes from The Decsent of Man

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AdminModulous
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Message 2 of 114 (718246)
02-05-2014 6:55 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Darwin on the Savage races thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

Shield
Member (Idle past 2862 days)
Posts: 482
Joined: 01-29-2008


Message 3 of 114 (718248)
02-05-2014 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-05-2014 6:46 PM


Darwin was racist...
... and that has no impact on the theory of evolution at all.
Darwin could have been a major jackass and bigot, but that would be irrelevant when discussing evolution. Him beeing this or that, does not change facts.
Edited by rbp, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 4 of 114 (718249)
02-05-2014 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-05-2014 6:46 PM


Darwin predicted that around about now "At some future period, not very distant, as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly (almost certainly, a favourite evolutionist interpretation of a proven fact) exterminate and replace throughout the world, the savage races"
His gloomy prediction, though not entirely accurate, was not far off, was it? Do you deny that many nations (for example, of Native Americans) were in fact wiped out?
In 1779, George Washington instructed Major General John Sullivan to attack Iroquois people. Washington stated, "lay waste all the settlements around...that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed". In the course of the carnage and annihilation of Indian people, Washington also instructed his general not "listen to any overture of peace before the total ruin of their settlements is effected". (Stannard, David E. AMERICAN HOLOCAUST. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992. pp. 118-121.)
In 1807, Thomas Jefferson instructed his War Department that, should any Indians resist against America stealing Indian lands, the Indian resistance must be met with "the hatchet". Jefferson continued, "And...if ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, " he wrote, "we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or is driven beyond the Mississippi." Jefferson, the slave owner, continued, "in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy all of them". (Ibid)
In 1812, Jefferson said that American was obliged to push the backward Indians "with the beasts of the forests into the Stony Mountains". One year later Jefferson continued anti-Indian statements by adding that America must "pursue [the Indians] to extermination, or drive them to new seats beyond our reach". (Ibid)
If you had been living in Darwin's time, how much would you have bet on the whites restraining themselves from total extermination?
Rather non PC but since it's science might I ask how potentially modern day members of the savage races who survived Darwin's fascist racist blatherings particularly evolutionists, feel about this?
I guess they're glad that for once he wasn't completely right.
It is not clear why you call him a "fascist racist". Unlike America's founding fathers, he didn't order the extermination or so much as hint that it would be a good thing. He merely said that he saw it coming.
Further more might I ask why musings like this are not equally mocked as wistful fables?
"For my own part I would soon be descended from that heroic little monkey who braved his dreaded enemy to save the life of his keeper, or that old baboon, who, descending the mountains, carried away in triumph his young comrade from a crowd of astonished dogs - as from a savage... "
Er ... the absence of any remotely fabulous quality?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 5 of 114 (718250)
02-05-2014 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-05-2014 6:46 PM


Is there some good reason you are trying to trash Darwin?
As was pointed out above, even if Darwin was a vile character that doesn't change the theory of evolution one bit.
If you don't like the theory of evolution, why don't you spend your time more productively, such as actually learning something about it and trying to find problems with either the evidence or theory?

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Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 6 of 114 (718251)
02-05-2014 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-05-2014 6:46 PM


Rather non PC but since it's science might I ask how potentially modern day members of the savage races who survived Darwin's fascist racist blatherings particularly evolutionists, feel about this?
They are not fascist thoughts. I feel the same about Darwin's racism as I do about Lincoln's racism. But I'm not an aboriginal Australian or Colombian tribesman. I'm not sure if we have any regular posters of that sort either.
Further more might I ask why musings like this are not equally mocked as wistful fables?
Its not a fable. Victorian writers had a peculiar style of their own and a bit of wistfulness was quite normal I believe. He's just saying he'd rather think of himself descended from monkeys of high character than humans of low character.
He doesn't spend long on this before quickly adding 'But we are not here concerned with hopes or fears, only with the truth as far as our reason permits us to discover it; and I have given the evidence to the best of my ability.'

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Omnivorous
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Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
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(1)
Message 7 of 114 (718252)
02-05-2014 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jaf
02-05-2014 6:46 PM


.
I thought, if you don't mind, I'd follow your example, and we can communicate mostly with cut and paste material.
Quote Mine Project writes:
Here is the quote in context:
Darwin writes:
The great break in the organic chain between man and his nearest allies, which cannot be bridged over by any extinct or living species, has often been advanced as a grave objection to the belief that man is descended from some lower form; but this objection will not appear of much weight to those who, from general reasons, believe in the general principle of evolution. Breaks often occur in all parts of the series, some being wide, sharp and defined, others less so in various degrees; as between the orang and its nearest allies -- between the Tarsius and the other Lemuridae -- between the elephant, and in a more striking manner between the Ornithorhynchus or Echidna, and all other mammals. But these breaks depend merely on the number of related forms which have become extinct. At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla. (Darwin, The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex. 2nd edn., London, John Murray, 1882, p. 156, which can be found at The writings of Charles Darwin on the web.)
First of all, Darwin is making a technical argument as to the "reality" of species, particularly Homo sapiens in this case, and why there should still be apparently distinct species, if all the different forms of life are related by common descent through incremental small changes. His answer is that competition against those forms with some, even small, advantage tends to eliminate closely related forms, giving rise to an apparent "gap" between the remaining forms. Whether or not Darwin was right about that is irrelevant to the use of this quote mine, of course, since that is part of the context that the creationists using it have assiduously removed. For those interested in the real issue, a bit more information can be found in the response to Quote #3.1.
Claims based on either of these quotes that Darwin and by extension modern evolutionary theory was or is "racist" or that the theory leads to racism, are less than honest. As John Wilkins noted in a "Feedback" article:
quote:
Throughout the Descent, when Darwin refers to "civilised races" he almost always is referring to cultures in Europe. I think Darwin was simply confused at that time about the difference between biological races and cultural races in humans. This is not surprising at this time - almost nobody made the distinction but Alfred Russel Wallace.
. . . At this time it was common for Europeans (based on an older notion of a "chain of being from lowest to highest") to think that Africans ("negroes") were all of one subspecific form, and were less developed than "Caucasians" or "Asians", based on a typology in around 1800 by the German Johann Friedrich Blumenach. In short, Darwin is falling prey to the same error almost everyone else was . . . So far as I can tell, he was not hoping for the extermination of these "races", though. ... Throughout his life, Darwin argued against slavery and for the freedom and dignity of native populations under European slavery.
Darwin was not perfect. But he was no racist.
In short, there is nothing in Darwin's words to support (and much in his life to contradict) any claim that Darwin wanted the "lower" or "savage races" to be exterminated. He was merely noting what appeared to him to be factual, based in no small part on the evidence of a European binge of imperialism and colonial conquest during his lifetime.
And if Wilkins is correct (and I think he is) about Darwin confusing biology and culture in this instance, Darwin was not entirely wrong. Certainly we can still see more technologically and militarily "advanced" cultures either destroying or, perhaps worse and more lasting, co-opting and replacing the less "advanced" ones.
I don't think I'll bother with the others.
You know, when someone sidles up to you and offers the slimy yield of their quote-mining, vilely smug, you can't help but feel a little dirty.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

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Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 8 of 114 (718254)
02-05-2014 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Shield
02-05-2014 7:08 PM


Re: Darwin was racist...
Most evolutionists seem to have serious issues with the character of God, why not the character of a man who belived half of us to be savages worthy of extinction?

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Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 9 of 114 (718255)
02-05-2014 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Modulous
02-05-2014 7:32 PM


Hitler allegedly was a big fan of Darwin's clearly racist views in that he was able to "scientifically supported" exterminate the "sub human" Jew in the aid of furthering evolution with the full support of Darwin's "science".

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 10 of 114 (718256)
02-05-2014 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jaf
02-05-2014 8:05 PM


Re: Darwin was racist...
Does anyone worship Charles Darwin and follow the 10 Darwin Commandments? What is the relevance of Darwins character? Why would you hold Darwin and your god to the same standards?

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

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Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 11 of 114 (718257)
02-05-2014 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Omnivorous
02-05-2014 7:54 PM


Re: .
I typed it word for word one finger at a time On my ipad I will have you know. I did clean the screen afterwards.

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Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 12 of 114 (718258)
02-05-2014 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by hooah212002
02-05-2014 8:23 PM


Re: Darwin was racist...
The alleged rat bag lord Voldermort esque evil bible god = evil vile bible god doesn't exist it's ancient 13.7 billion year old belief system.

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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 13 of 114 (718259)
02-05-2014 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jaf
02-05-2014 8:05 PM


Re: Darwin was racist...
Most evolutionists seem to have serious issues with the character of God, why not the character of a man who belived half of us to be savages worthy of extinction?
Well i doubt he thought them worthy of extinction, i think he just found that their extinction was inevitable as in many cases it was.
So fare the same prediction apply s for educated people. The current trend is showing that uneducated people will out breed us. As they see contraception as evil or are unaware of what it is but cannot hold back their natural urges they have more children on average as educated people do. Now im not saying its impossible to educate them but current environmental pressures favour the uneducated meaning that cleverness is not selected for and will thus decay in our population.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

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Jaf
Member (Idle past 3694 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 01-30-2014


Message 14 of 114 (718260)
02-05-2014 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coyote
02-05-2014 7:31 PM


Meet me over in the cosmology threads.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 15 of 114 (718261)
02-05-2014 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Jaf
02-05-2014 8:28 PM


Re: Darwin was racist...
I'm not quite sure I follow. Can you clarify what you mean?

"Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins

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