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Author Topic:   SCIENCE: -- "observational science" vs "historical science" vs ... science.
Diomedes
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Posts: 884
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 16 of 614 (718421)
02-06-2014 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Theodoric
02-06-2014 3:23 PM


Re: Nonsense labels
She is a creo they have different rules.

I noticed. And apparently, they adhere to a different set of Laws of Physics, Chemistry and Biology.

You will notice she has been doing this a lot lately and no one has said a thing. I call it the creo exemption.

I am surprised she didn't revert to all capitals. That is also one of her modus operandi.

And sorry for diverting topics RAZD. Hard to engage in dialog when all I have as a rebuttal is a one word response.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20066
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 17 of 614 (718422)
02-06-2014 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Theodoric
02-06-2014 3:24 PM


Re: let's keep on topic please
You are going to chastise Diomedes?

And anyone else that doesn't stick to the topic ... including you. If it doesn't add to the debate keep quiet.

Edited by RAZD, : /


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Theodoric, posted 02-06-2014 3:24 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 928 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


(1)
Message 18 of 614 (718423)
02-06-2014 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-06-2014 12:09 PM


How about forensic science?
If creationists want to discard "historical science", shouldn't they do away with forensic science as well? After all, forensic science deals with, for example, murder scenes where the murder took place in the past, and the forensic scientists weren't there at the time. So, how can they draw any valid conclusions about the murderer?

Yet, with the advent of DNA-analysis we see cold cases being solved conclusively one after another.

It is a bit naive of creationists not to see the value of the scientific method for all kinds of science.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 614 (718425)
02-06-2014 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Parasomnium
02-06-2014 3:39 PM


Re: How about forensic science?
As has been discussed recently already, forensic science does not deal with the PREHISTORIC UNWITNESSED PAST. There are witnesses of all kinds (I count written documents that relate to the crime to be witnesses) and ways of checking everything that has to do with the crime with people and documents and all kinds of known information about similar crimes. Anything that occurred in the historical past or the past shared by living people can be tested in all kinds of ways. You can't compare this to the sciences involved in trying to explain things from the UNWITNESSED PREHISTORIC past where there are no testable clues because there are no witnesses, again meaning any kind of documented knowledge as well as human witnesses.

You can know some things about the unwitnessed past such as the former existence of creatures that are no longer living, but the theories/hypotheses about how they lived or died or the climate they lived in or their genetic relatedness to other creatures are impossible to test, you are stuck with the hypotheses and no way to corroborate them.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 32716
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 614 (718426)
02-06-2014 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Diomedes
02-06-2014 3:31 PM


Re: Nonsense labels
The name calling and accusatory crap I have to put up with here doesn't compare with my occasional outbursts, and the rules have long since been put aside for whatever reason, LONG since. I'm glad to see that occasionally they are still enforced.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6498
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 21 of 614 (718427)
02-06-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
02-06-2014 3:34 PM


Re: let's keep on topic please
Leave the moderation up to the moderators. Your self-righteousness and condescension is old and weary. You are not a moderator no matter how much you fantasize about being one.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 884
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 22 of 614 (718428)
02-06-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Parasomnium
02-06-2014 3:39 PM


Re: How about forensic science?
If creationists want to discard "historical science", shouldn't they do away with forensic science as well?

Yes, this was brought up on the other forum thread. I guess they demarcate based on 'recent' historical versus 'very old' or 'ancient' historical.

I guess that also begs the question: if ' historical science' is unreliable, as Creationists stipulate, then how can they have such a dogmatic adherence to what is written in the Bible?

That book was, afterall, written long after the events it portrays. If we are dealing semantically here, then one cannot simply dismiss out of hand what is considered 'historical science' whilst simultaneously indicating that everything written regarding things like the Genesis account or Exodus are fixed absolutes.


"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AdminModulous
Administrator (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 23 of 614 (718429)
02-06-2014 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
02-06-2014 2:54 PM


Idiot

Unacceptable.


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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 24 of 614 (718433)
02-06-2014 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
02-06-2014 3:51 PM


Re: How about forensic science?
You can't compare this to the sciences involved in trying to explain things from the UNWITNESSED PREHISTORIC past where there are no testable clues because there are no witnesses, again meaning any kind of documented knowledge as well as human witnesses.

You can know some things about the unwitnessed past such as the former existence of creatures that are no longer living ...

So we can, as you I persuaded you to concede on the other thread, know that stegosauruses lived. Hooray, we're getting there. But then ...

but the theories/hypotheses about how they lived or died or the climate they lived in or their genetic relatedness to other creatures are impossible to test, you are stuck with the hypotheses and no way to corroborate them.

... apparently we're not allowed to say that stegosauruses didn't fly from tree to tree, because that would touch on how they lived. The idea that they didn't fly sounds suspiciously like something an atheist would say. Or pretty much anyone with a lick of sense, really.

Similarly, it seems that we can't say that a tyrannosaur and a stegosaur aren't brother and sister, since this claim about their genetic relationship is untestable.

One can learn so much from creationists about science, such as how not to do it.

However, there's something more you should tell us. On what principle do you declare that we can know that stegosauruses lived, but not whether they could fly. Now that you've retreated from your general claim that we can't know the unwitnessed past, what criterion are you using to decide what we can and can't know?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


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ooh-child
Member
Posts: 239
Joined: 04-10-2009
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 25 of 614 (718435)
02-06-2014 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Diomedes
02-06-2014 3:54 PM


Re: How about forensic science?
I guess that also begs the question: if ' historical science' is unreliable, as Creationists stipulate, then how can they have such a dogmatic adherence to what is written in the Bible?

Let me play devil's advocate here - the Bible is the inerrant word of God, silly. Says so right in the book. Everything in it is inspired by a perfect being, therefore, it is perfect. Besides, God was there.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20066
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 26 of 614 (718438)
02-06-2014 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Theodoric
02-06-2014 3:54 PM


Re: let's keep on topic please
and yet I see a lot of garbage being posted instead of a debate on the topic

your behavior is old and childish -- it disturbs me when I start a thread and then have to wade through post after post that are irrelevant and counter productive.

Do you really think that having 1 or 2 good responses in 25 posts is a productive debate?

Really?

So stop trolling and debate.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 27 of 614 (718441)
02-06-2014 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
02-06-2014 3:51 PM


Clash Of Faiths, Part Six Jillion
Faith writes:

but the theories/hypotheses about how they lived or died or the climate they lived in [...] are impossible to test, you are stuck with the hypotheses and no way to corroborate them.

OK ... so we can't know how fossil creatures died or what the weather was like when they lived. But wait, what's this you say on the other thread ... ?

Faith writes:

The worldwide billions of fossils are terrific evidence for a worldwide catastrophe that buried them all at one time; the strata could only have been formed in water, and their immensity and existence throughout the world suggest an immense and worldwide catastrophe. This is so obvious it takes dishonesty to deny it. Or stupidity.

So ... we can't know how fossil creatures died or what the weather was like ... and also it's obvious that they were killed by a big flood, one would have to be stupid or dishonest to deny it.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20066
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 28 of 614 (718442)
02-06-2014 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
02-06-2014 3:51 PM


Let's use an example to explore this further
Thank you Faith.

As has been discussed recently already, forensic science does not deal with the PREHISTORIC UNWITNESSED PAST. There are witnesses of all kinds (I count written documents that relate to the crime to be witnesses) and ways of checking everything that has to do with the crime with people and documents and all kinds of known information about similar crimes. Anything that occurred in the historical past or the past shared by living people can be tested in all kinds of ways. ...

I am curious as to the actual extent of this and the criteria for deciding. Let me make an example to use for discussion:

Sample #1: the "Methuselah" tree a bristlecone pine living in the White Mountains in California.

We can observe this tree today, and we can make core samples and observe the ring patterns of dark, small cells and light, large cells that have grown in the tree.

Now I can count tree rings in this living tree and get a number of 4845 rings.

Now it is commonly known that trees produce growth rings every year. So what can we conclude from this data that we observe today?


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

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Replies to this message:
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Pollux
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Posts: 251
Joined: 11-13-2011


(2)
Message 29 of 614 (718443)
02-06-2014 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Diomedes
02-06-2014 3:54 PM


Semantics : Begging the question
Since this is a debate thread let us use begging the question to mean assuming the premise true to prove the conclusion.
Saying begging the question to mean raising the question is unfortunately becoming widespread.
This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20066
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 30 of 614 (718445)
02-06-2014 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Parasomnium
02-06-2014 3:39 PM


Re: How about forensic science? -- not on prehistoric unwitnessed events?
If creationists want to discard "historical science", shouldn't they do away with forensic science as well? After all, forensic science deals with, for example, murder scenes where the murder took place in the past, and the forensic scientists weren't there at the time. So, how can they draw any valid conclusions about the murderer?

Faith draws a line between what could reasonable be witnessed or documented by people (without saying how far back this goes) and what would be prehistoric.

What I wonder about the line she draws is how she then explains the fantastic cave art in France and Spain where there are documented scenes of prehistoric life and animals.

Yet, with the advent of DNA-analysis we see cold cases being solved conclusively one after another.

When you get back to the point where DNA samples are not obtainable then this line of evidence is not so useful.

It is a bit naive of creationists not to see the value of the scientific method for all kinds of science.

Well that is the issue isn't it? If I can make an hypothesis from observations of existing data (fossils, sedimentary layers etc etc etc) and then TEST the hypothesis to see if it is valid or invalid then it is science yes?

What Faith (and Ham and other creationists) apparently claims is that IF the events in the past can not be REPRODUCED that then they cannot be tested.

Now we can take issue with this as being overly simplistic in regard to the requirements of science, but I would like to discuss this with Faith and see where she draws the lines and whether they make sense.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Parasomnium, posted 02-06-2014 3:39 PM Parasomnium has responded

Replies to this message:
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