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Author | Topic: Is there a legitimate argument for design? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PlanManStan Member (Idle past 3716 days) Posts: 73 Joined: |
You're right we don't. And that's why I don't believe in God, there is no evidence for him. I don't need evidence against his existence. I would say that the details are important. I think what you are saying is that i had no evidence to think that there was a man behind me, but I acted as such. I've already outlined the evidence for why it was a good guess that a man was behind me. What is the problem, again? Yes, it could have been a cat, but that was not as statistically likely. Therefore, I go with the most likely solution.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You're right we don't. ABE: wait, upon re-reading I think that you might be saying that I was right that we don't have the luxury of good data, rather than saying I was right that we don't always operate as though things don't exist until shown otherwise. That's why its a good idea to use the quote function. That's all I was trying to get you to acknowledge. You said that you operate as if something does not exist until you have evidence that it does. That's all fine and dandy for online discussions about the existence of god, but I was trying to get you to see that it doesn't really apply that well out in the real world.
I think what you are saying is that i had no evidence to think that there was a man behind me, but I acted as such. I've already outlined the evidence for why it was a good guess that a man was behind me. What is the problem, again? A good guess isn't evidence. But the details of the scenario don't really matter. I was just trying to get you to see that sometimes we act on little to no evidence in ways that are counter to disbelieving that something is there until shown otherwise. I thought if I could walk you through a scenario where you'd be afraid of the unknown, then you would see what I was talking about. Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE
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PlanManStan Member (Idle past 3716 days) Posts: 73 Joined: |
I never said that a good guess was evidence. I said that, presented with the statistical likelihood of what would be knocking over cans in a city and knowing something about the neighborhood (maybe there are a lot of kids who stay out late, maybe there's a lot of cat-owners, etc.). Acting on little or no evidence...do you mean like our fight-or-flight instinct? There's evidence backing up our decisions there as well! Something large popped out and (at least millions of years ago) we statistically could assume that it would be dangerous. Of course, that isn't what people back then would've actively be thinking. It's similar to how we know where to put our hand to catch a thrown ball, even though we don't calculate the physics of it first.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Well, I can't think of any language I could use to more explicitly state my point, and I don't feel like you've actually addressed it. So I guess I'll just try to state it again:
Out in the real world, people don't operate as though things don't exist until they are shown that they do. That position is used in online discussion about the existence of god, but that's not how people actually behave.
Acting on little or no evidence...do you mean like our fight-or-flight instinct? I mean like when you get scared in a dark alley even though you don't have any evidence suggesting that there is something there. Nobody walks around like a boss without any fear. People behave as though there may be something there despite the lack of evidence that there is.
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PlanManStan Member (Idle past 3716 days) Posts: 73 Joined: |
I understand your point. What my point is is that, whether we are aware of it or not, there are underlying and rational reasons for what we think. And where did the whole "no evidence that someone was there" come from? What about the can? Even without the can, our culture and our movies have so ingrained in us the eerieness and terror of a dark alleyway that we begin to feel it in the real world. I never said I felt no fear. I am only saying that, whether I am aware of it or not, I don't feel unwarented fear.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I understand your point. What my point is is that, whether we are aware of it or not, there are underlying and rational reasons for what we think. Even for the belief in god? Too, there's underlying irrational reasons.
And where did the whole "no evidence that someone was there" come from? What about the can? The can was part 2. Part 1 was just:
quote: .
Even without the can, our culture and our movies have so ingrained in us the eerieness and terror of a dark alleyway that we begin to feel it in the real world. Our culture also has ingrained in us the belief in god. Would you say that belief in god is an evidenced postion as well then? I suppose you wouldn't. Why then does it count for the dark alley? Seems contradictory to me. I mean, sure, there's reasons for being scared of an empty dark alley, but in that sense there's reasons for believing in god. Given that there's no evidence for god, and thus you have disbelief in its existence, then given that there's no evidence for anything in the alley, you should be free from fear because you'd disbelieve that there's anything there. But you won't be free from fear, because people don't operate under the position of disbelieving that something is there until evidence shows otherwise. That's my point.
I am only saying that, whether I am aware of it or not, I don't feel unwarented fear. So now its a questions about how belief is warranted, regardless of the evidence. So are you saying that you will believe in something without evidence if it is warranted?
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PlanManStan Member (Idle past 3716 days) Posts: 73 Joined: |
Our culture hardly ingrains us with belief in God as we are discussing here. Have you listened to the most popular artists and seen the most popular songs and gone to the most popular movies? All either openly mock Christianity (well, Jehovah's witnesses) and are distinctly un-Christian/Jew/Muslim in their morality. Either way, I never called it hard evidence, at least I did not intend to.
I've outlined the evidence for why there might be someone in the dark alley if the can was there. And I've outilned why I might think (although less firmly) why I might think there was a man in a quiet, dark alley. Nothing is warrented without evidence or reason, although the two go hand in hand. It is not an opinion, it is objective. Are you reading my comments? You are asking the same question of "in the real world we don't act like this" and I've kept giving you an answer. It's not worth typing it anymore. For the last time, and I won't reply to another comment like this, I HAVE GIVEN EVIDENCE FOR BEING AFRAID IN BOTH ALLEY-GORIES (you see what I did there?)
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dadman Member (Idle past 3690 days) Posts: 45 From: wichita Kansas USA Joined: |
well .. before you give up .. you might think about (aside from the evolution debate) how it is now scientifically proven that all life is triune and derives from a source of intelligence . . . I would call this going from point A to B
Edited by dadman, : No reason given. Edited by dadman, : No reason given.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
it is now scientifically proven Science does not deal in "proof." The highest level of explanation in science is the theory. So, could you please explain which theory you are referring to so that we may discuss it?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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PlanManStan Member (Idle past 3716 days) Posts: 73 Joined: |
How? Where? Who? These are all important questions
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dadman Member (Idle past 3690 days) Posts: 45 From: wichita Kansas USA Joined: |
"So, could you please explain which theory you are referring to so that we may discuss it?"
first of all .. you have to display the three elements of life .. matter / energy and ... xxx
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
first of all .. you have to display the three elements of life .. matter / energy and ... xxx So what is your theory? And perhaps a refresher on the definition of a theory might help: Theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses. Theories do not grow up to be laws. Theories explain laws. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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dadman Member (Idle past 3690 days) Posts: 45 From: wichita Kansas USA Joined: |
don't make this more difficult than it needs to be . . . truth is very simple
do you know the third element of life ??
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2135 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
truth is very simple Truth: This is a word best avoided entirely in physics [and science] except when placed in quotes, or with careful qualification. Its colloquial use has so many shades of meaning from ‘it seems to be correct’ to the absolute truths claimed by religion, that it’s use causes nothing but misunderstanding. Someone once said "Science seeks proximate (approximate) truths." Others speak of provisional or tentative truths. Certainly science claims no final or absolute truths. Source do you know the third element of life ?? Presumably you will enlighten us?Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
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Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 313 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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first of all .. you have to display the three elements of life .. matter / energy and ... xxx I looked up xxx on the internet. Well, that was interesting.
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