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Author Topic:   Is there a legitimate argument for design?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 91 of 638 (720321)
02-21-2014 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by dadman
02-21-2014 2:04 PM


Re: okay: I'll give you all a hint
dadman writes:
what else (not related to matter or energy)
A story!
Or Information?
But those are related to matter and energy... So then, again, I don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 2:04 PM dadman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-21-2014 2:41 PM Stile has replied
 Message 94 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 2:42 PM Stile has replied
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:49 PM Stile has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 92 of 638 (720323)
02-21-2014 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Theodoric
02-21-2014 2:23 PM


Re: Stop feeding the troll
He won't go away if we keep feeding him.
Was a little curious about the 3rd element though because the 5th element is hot. I mean smoking.
or ... wood, fire, earth, metal and water ... I'm sure we can keep stringing him along ...
Indeed. He has been given enough answers, so it's time to show and tell ... or confirm he is a troll by continuing to behave like a prepubescent child ...
... and either way he will suffer the consequences of his juvenile approach. Respect is earned.
So we can have fun trolling the troll.
Edited by RAZD, : ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 335 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 93 of 638 (720324)
02-21-2014 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Stile
02-21-2014 2:34 PM


Re: okay: I'll give you all a hint
Stile writes:
Or Information?
This does seem to be where he is going with this, although this is something that I have seen creationists attempt to argue multiple times and I have never seen any quality evidence for the idea that information requires a higher power more than just random chance and keeping what happened to work a little better.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 2:34 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 2:53 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
dadman
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 45
From: wichita Kansas USA
Joined: 02-19-2014


Message 94 of 638 (720325)
02-21-2014 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Stile
02-21-2014 2:34 PM


very good stile .... you are correct
A story .. Or Information?
information is the correct answer . . . now, how do I plan to make the connection to all life ?
however .. before we can continue ... we need to nail down this truth until all are onboard . . . I plan to leave no one behind
Edited by dadman, : mispell
Edited by dadman, : No reason given.
Edited by dadman, : mispell

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 2:34 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 3:13 PM dadman has not replied
 Message 104 by frako, posted 02-21-2014 6:24 PM dadman has not replied
 Message 105 by Omnivorous, posted 02-21-2014 6:40 PM dadman has not replied
 Message 120 by Taq, posted 02-24-2014 3:30 PM dadman has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 95 of 638 (720327)
02-21-2014 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Stile
02-21-2014 2:34 PM


pratt trolling
Or Information?
Yep -- that hoary old chestnut ... no surprises at all. Another dud, man ... but you weren't supposed to give it away, we could probably string him out another hundred posts ...
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 2:34 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 2:50 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 99 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 3:16 PM RAZD has replied

  
dadman
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 45
From: wichita Kansas USA
Joined: 02-19-2014


Message 96 of 638 (720328)
02-21-2014 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by RAZD
02-21-2014 2:49 PM


I'll return in a few days inorder to maybe
converse with intelligent people . . . . later

This message is a reply to:
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Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 97 of 638 (720329)
02-21-2014 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
02-21-2014 2:41 PM


Information
Tempe 12ft Chicken writes:
although this is something that I have seen creationists attempt to argue multiple times and I have never seen any quality evidence for the idea that information requires a higher power more than just random chance and keeping what happened to work a little better.
No, it never does hold any water. From anything I've heard before, anyway.
Information is not some mystical, unknown force of nature.
Information is a word humans created to help describe our comprehension of ideas.
Some of those ideas we imagine ourselves (eg. fictional stories).
Some of those ideas we perceive from reality (eg. objective observations).
Whatever form it takes, it is, simply, "data."
Which is nothing more than a description of what we perceive.
We can write it down, using language in books.
Or we can just keep it stored in our memory in our brains.
There's nothing mystical about "information" though. It's just a word. Like "rocks." Just a word we use to describe a certain concept.
Spiders. Now there's a word with some power...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 02-21-2014 2:41 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 98 of 638 (720331)
02-21-2014 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by dadman
02-21-2014 2:42 PM


Re: very good stile .... you are a carrot
Stile writes:
dadman writes:
what else (not related to matter or energy)
Or Information?
dadman writes:
information is the correct answer . . .
Really?
But... information is related to matter and energy.
So, if you are claiming that the answer is not related to matter or energy... how can the answer be "information?"
quote:
information
noun
1. facts provided or learned about something or someone.
"a vital piece of information"
2. what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things.
"genetically transmitted information"
Information is just data. A rock has information (how hard it is... how heavy it is...). But all that information is about it's matter and energy.
It is impossible to have "information" without having matter or energy.
Even made up information, like fictional stories, are about matter and energy.
Can you explain how information is unrelated to matter or energy?
Can you give an example of information that is about something that is not matter or energy?
And RAZDs examples like rocks and waterfalls and suns are filled with information.
Are you saying that rocks and waterfalls and suns are alive? I will have to apologize to RAZD... I thought he was going in the wrong direction... but he was right all along.
now, how do I plan to make the connection to all life ?
Most likely with DNA. But, of course, there's nothing special about the information in DNA that is any different from the information that is in a rock's hardness or weight or a sun's processes. It's all just objective descriptions of matter or energy that we can perceive in reality.
But we already have lots of topics on that. Feel free to read some of these:
Increases in Genetic Information
Adding information to the genome.
Information Changes in DNA by logical Analysis
coded information in DNA
Evolving New Information
Information Theory and Intelligent Design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 2:42 PM dadman has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 99 of 638 (720332)
02-21-2014 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by RAZD
02-21-2014 2:49 PM


Re: pratt trolling
RAZD writes:
Yep -- that hoary old chestnut ... no surprises at all.
Yes, I apologize, you were right all along.
The 3 elements of life: Matter, energy and information.
According to dadman's own example... books are alive? Maybe just the really thick ones... I don't think I own a 5" thick book. Bet they're good for killing spiders.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:49 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 3:47 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 107 by Atheos canadensis, posted 02-22-2014 12:01 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 100 of 638 (720334)
02-21-2014 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Stile
02-21-2014 3:16 PM


trolling trolling trolling, keep those pratters trolling
Yes, I apologize, you were right all along.
And now he thinks he's going to string us along to the next step in his little fantasy ... but it doesn't take much intelligence to figure that out too.
The 3 elements of life: Matter, energy and information.
And that adds up to spiders
According to dadman's own example... books are alive? Maybe just the really thick ones... I don't think I own a 5" thick book. Bet they're good for killing spiders.
My dad had an old Webster's Dictionary that was a good 4" thick and printed on "onion paper" (very thin stuff) ... and it had spiders in it.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Stile, posted 02-21-2014 3:16 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 101 of 638 (720335)
02-21-2014 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by RAZD
02-21-2014 2:30 PM


Re: science and life
In '67 I rode in the passenger seat of a hopped up Corvair, 80 mph, on the wide sidewalk on the campus of a local trade school. Drunk, of course. Stupid too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by RAZD, posted 02-21-2014 2:30 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 102 of 638 (720336)
02-21-2014 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by JonF
02-21-2014 3:55 PM


Re: science and life
Been there done that ... had my mom's convertible with the top down and left a party with the seats full plus two sitting on the folded down top (legs down the back seat).
Went over a railroad track on a dirt back road, banked. The car left the ground and I saw knees in the rear view mirror ... everybody landed safely. The next day all four tires were low on air ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by JonF, posted 02-21-2014 3:55 PM JonF has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Coyote, posted 02-21-2014 4:27 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 103 of 638 (720337)
02-21-2014 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by RAZD
02-21-2014 4:03 PM


Re: science and life
If you want a spider, why are you thinking Corvairs!???
Here's a spider!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 104 of 638 (720341)
02-21-2014 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by dadman
02-21-2014 2:42 PM


Re: very good stile .... you are correct
information is the correct answer
Um so you think DNA basicly has a code that say make the nose this wide, the hair this collor, lungs this big the hart so strong ....
Its just chemical reactions gene X produces protein y that reacts with compound z. Thats the "information" in DNA
Claiming anything else is claiming oxygen has the information on how to make iron rust, and things burn. Co has the information on how to bind to haemoglobin more strongly then oxygen.
In the same way no gene has the information to make a protein it just makes them because those kind of chemical reactions happen do to the laws of chemistry. We are the ones that assign information to DNA for simplicity sake we say gene xyz increases the likelihood of cancer or whatever.
Edited by frako, : No reason given.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by dadman, posted 02-21-2014 2:42 PM dadman has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 105 of 638 (720342)
02-21-2014 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by dadman
02-21-2014 2:42 PM


Re: very good stile .... you are correct
dadman writes:
however .. before we can continue ... we need to nail down this truth until all are onboard . . . I plan to leave no one behind
Too late.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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